How to Build the Insight Edge with Vivek Banerji

[00:00:00] Vivek Banerji: You have to be polymathic. You should be able to go deep in multiple fields, and that also applies to the industry. Sometimes if you are working on something like a scientific field like genomics, you cannot understand customers unless you actually go deep into the science. So you have this. Need this adaptive learning capacity to go.

[00:00:18] Vivek Banerji: Gee, 

[00:00:20] MRII Announcer: welcome Tori’s Insights and Innovators podcast, where we talk to top market research professionals to get their inside stories about innovative and enduring best practices. Now here’s your host for today’s episode. 

[00:00:34] Niels Schillewaert: Hi everyone. Uh, welcome to this new episode of Insights and Innovators, uh, from the Market Research Institute International.

[00:00:42] Niels Schillewaert: Um, I’m your host today. I am Neils Hillard. I’m head of Research and Methodologies at conveo. And in today’s episode, we welcome a very interesting guest, Vivic. Banerjee. Um, if you don’t know Vivek, um, we’re, I’m going to introduce him in a second. Uh, but he basically [00:01:00] wrote a book, which is called The Insight Edge, uh, crafting breakthroughs in a world, uh, of information overload.

[00:01:07] Niels Schillewaert: And you can already see that that fits the theme of today’s, uh, podcast, which is information everywhere, inside Nowhere maybe. Um, but how can we build that insight, uh, edge? So, uh, welcome already. Uh, to Vivek. Um, and let me introduce, uh, the topic of today. If we look at today’s business environment, um, you know, we’re surrounded, if not inundated by information and data.

[00:01:34] Niels Schillewaert: Um, we have more data than ever before. We have more analytical tools than ever before. We now have AI that can, you know, analyze these vast amounts of, of, of data and still many leaders struggle with a very familiar challenge that was already there. I would say even before all these tools and data. Um, but it’s to turn all that data into breakthrough insights, um, to be able to make better decisions.

[00:01:59] Niels Schillewaert: [00:02:00] So I always frame that as we’re data rich for sure, but we’re often insights poor. So, um, my guest today, uh, believes that the answer, uh, doesn’t just lie in better data, but in developing. What he calls an insights edge. Um, as I mentioned, Vivek wrote, um, uh, his book. He, he will talk about that a little bit, uh, more during, uh, the, uh, the podcast.

[00:02:22] Niels Schillewaert: But in his career, he has, uh, you know, he’s a subject matter expert if you want. He’s been in consulting, uh, at McKinsey’s, been in the industry, uh, and in the insights profession in particular, um, holding leadership role at, at PepsiCo, for example. And today he’s the founder, uh, of insights. Jojo Dojo, sorry for that.

[00:02:41] Niels Schillewaert: Insight Dojo, uh, where he advises organizations on how to unlock deeper insights and innovation. So we’ll explore today why more information doesn’t automatically lead to, uh, better insights. So, uh, Vivek, uh, welcome to, uh, the Insights and Innovators, uh, [00:03:00] podcast. Uh, thank 

[00:03:00] Vivek Banerji: you. Thank you. It’s really a privilege to be here, so it’s a great work podcast.

[00:03:05] Vivek Banerji: Thank you. 

[00:03:06] Niels Schillewaert: Likewise, and thanks for taking the time. Vic, let’s start with the paradox that is at the heart of your book, um, which is what I just referred to. We have all these data dashboards, AI tools, um, yet we can’t get to the breakthrough, uh, insights. Um, in your book, you, you, you wrote a book basically to address that gap.

[00:03:26] Niels Schillewaert: Um, what is the fundamental mistake or, or, um, thing that organizations lack, uh, when they assume that more information? Will lead to better insights. 

[00:03:38] Vivek Banerji: Yeah, I think, uh, you’ve just, uh, got to straight to the point, to the tension, uh, why I wrote the book, and, uh, what’s been happening, uh, over time, uh, is that increasingly I think people are conflating insight with information.

[00:03:57] Vivek Banerji: So you can see it the way people talk [00:04:00] about. Um, they’ll always conjugate insight with information. They’ll say analytics and insight, data and insight. And there’s this underlying assumption that the more information I’ll have, I’ll have great insight. And the reality is quite different because there’s a nonlinear relationship between.

[00:04:20] Vivek Banerji: And information because you can have vast amount of information and no insight, like, I mean, sorry to talk about geopolitics, but we can see what’s happening right now in the war. You know, probably the go governments have all the information, they have the greatest technology, and they’re not, they couldn’t predict how the war would unfold.

[00:04:38] Vivek Banerji: I mean, this is so recent. I mean, it’s very salient in my mind. On the other hand, you have people who’ve just seen. Looked at one observation and created this breakthrough product Science art is full of examples like that. Business is full of examples like that. So it’s that non-linearity. And how do you kind of.

[00:04:56] Vivek Banerji: Leverage that linear non-linearity [00:05:00] between insight and information to create insights which are powerful, which is what my book is about. Right? So, yeah. 

[00:05:06] Niels Schillewaert: Oh, okay. And what, what do we need as an organization to get to that one insight? Or, or, or 

[00:05:13] Vivek Banerji: to leverage 

[00:05:13] Niels Schillewaert: it or, or to sift through 

[00:05:15] Vivek Banerji: the format. Exactly. So yeah, I think it’s a great point.

[00:05:18] Vivek Banerji: So the first thing, which I always say, and I find is missing in lots of organizations. Is many times people are not defining what the problem they’re solving is, right? I mean, you’ll see people are collecting a lot of information, but it’s totally unmatched to the big problems that the senior leadership of.

[00:05:41] Vivek Banerji: Company is facing, right, and there’s so much uncertainty. So the first thing is to really define what the big problem is and acknowledge that there’s a lot of uncertainty rather than collecting information on things that we already know. And you probably have seen that, that this is very common, that we keep collecting information.

[00:05:59] Vivek Banerji: [00:06:00] Which is not, there’s a mismatch between the problem and the levels of uncertainty and, uh, you know, the, what we are collecting. The second thing is, you know, I think it’s really important to acknowledge that we don’t know lots of. Organizations, they always have this front that we know because we want to kind of weaponize knowledge and we wanna say that we are the experts in everything.

[00:06:25] Vivek Banerji: And you can see that. And that gets in the way of really looking at what is required. So there’s this whole thing that you have to acknowledge, there’s uncertainty and say that I may not know the answer to start off with. And then it’s about being multifaceted in the way you think. The way you deploy methodologies and the way you interact with people.

[00:06:48] Vivek Banerji: So to be in our role, we are so lucky. I mean, we have to think in so many different ways. We have to observe, we have to empathize, we have to be very analytical and intuitive, creative. So there are [00:07:00] many ways of thinking. Uh, we have to draw analogies and then we have to deploy a variety of tools where we’re talking about, you know, whether qualitative machine learning, thinking, you know, statistical techniques, behavioral economics.

[00:07:13] Vivek Banerji: There’s so many fields that we can bring. To the table. And that gives us a better understanding of human beings. And finally, to implement, uh, you know, insights, you always have to work with many different kinds of people. You’re talking to a CEO, you have to be able to talk at the big picture level.

[00:07:29] Vivek Banerji: You’re talking to people who are implementing things, and you have to make it all very executional. So there’s this always this multifacetedness, which is required. Um, and I think that’s the way we need to go. So just to kind of sum up what I’m saying is that a, um, you have to acknowledge, contextualize what you do to the big problem that you’re solving.

[00:07:49] Vivek Banerji: You have to acknowledge the uncertainty and say that, I actually don’t know. And then b, very multifaceted in the way you think. You deploy tools and techniques [00:08:00] and methods and the way you interact with people. And my contention is we can train ourselves. To do this. It’s, it’s like any field of mastery. It won’t come to people just like that, but if you practice, you can really be, become good at it.

[00:08:15] Vivek Banerji: Right? So, so that’s, that’s the basic proposition, right? So. 

[00:08:19] Niels Schillewaert: Okay. Interesting. Uh, thank you for, for, uh, you know, uh, putting that on the table and, uh, uh, I think it’s, it’s hard for people to acknowledge sometimes that we don’t know, right? It’s, uh, you know, or that we’re, that we’re learning on the, on the go.

[00:08:35] Niels Schillewaert: Now, if I, if I am, um, reflecting a little bit, um, we both have been in the industry for quite a while. Um, this is not a new discussion as such, right? Yes. Uh, it’s been there for years. It’s been there for decades. Would you say in your observations, in your interactions with, you know, in your consultancy, have we come at all better in terms of generating insights over time?

[00:08:56] Niels Schillewaert: Or have we just been producing, uh, more [00:09:00] information? What’s your, what’s your take on that? 

[00:09:02] Vivek Banerji: So it’s, it’s a really hard question because, you know, to make a generalization, uh, across, uh, is very hard. But I do think that there’s a certain mechanization that has ha happened. For instance, if, uh, when I go back in my earlier years and I think about all our kind of FMCG type of people, Unilever, Pepsi, there was a lot of thoughtfulness that went into most of the insights that we generated.

[00:09:31] Vivek Banerji: Increasingly, I do think it’s becoming more mechanized and uh, and of course you have to say that this is a generalization, and I’m sure I’m wrong in many cases, right. And the, uh, the challenge, uh, that is happening is because of people keep debating whether we should use AI or not. Ai, what’s the impact of ai?

[00:09:53] Vivek Banerji: I think it’s, if you use AI creatively with a lot of judgment, you will get great insights, [00:10:00] right? I mean, that’s where, so, so I think that’s the sort of, uh, my perspective that when people criticize AI often it’s because we’ve made ourselves. Ready to be mechanized. And then what we are criticizing is our mechanical use of AI rather than AI itself.

[00:10:19] Vivek Banerji: Right. So, so, so that’s, that’s my kind of observation. I’m sure in some dimensions we are really improving, but in many dimensions I think we’re not. Right. So. 

[00:10:29] Niels Schillewaert: Yeah. And I hear you. We’ll talk about AI, uh, a little bit further down, uh, the road ’cause I have some questions on that as well. Uh, very, very recognizable, uh, Vivek, I, I, I often say.

[00:10:43] Niels Schillewaert: You know, technology doesn’t solve problems. People do. And it’s the same with mechanics or, or processes. If we try to box it in into something, then it’s not gonna work. Um, so basically what you’re saying, it’s an art. You mentioned things like creativity, um, and in your book you describe [00:11:00] that, you know, true insights are.

[00:11:02] Niels Schillewaert: Um, you know, using empathy, creativity, uh, curiosity, you know, analytical, critical, uh, thinking. Could you relate that? And maybe, you know, for the audience as well, focus a little bit on what is really an insight and why are those human in elements, uh, so critical to a breakthrough insight as you, uh, as you call it.

[00:11:23] Niels Schillewaert: Could you elaborate a little bit on that? 

[00:11:24] Vivek Banerji: Yeah, sure. So, uh, so my definition of insight, there are lots of definitions of insight, right? If you see it, and that’s fine. I think it should be varied, right? That just shows that insight is a multifaceted idea. But my definition is it’s a, for, especially for the type of work we do, which is in business, that within a context insight is a transition from a state of not knowing to knowing that empowers us to take positive.

[00:11:53] Vivek Banerji: Actions. Right? So that’s my definition. So there’s definitely this transition that happens and [00:12:00] I, it’s a pretty mind body visceral experience that happens. It’s not like what you see on a dashboard and something like that. And that doesn’t translate. It has this power that says Wow. And that’s why we talk about the aha moment, right?

[00:12:15] Vivek Banerji: And uh, and I think because. Most problems, as we say, are so multifaceted, right? You cannot actually look at it, uh, from just one angle. Can I give you an example? Should I just over an example? So one of my clients, uh, uh, a while back, they are, they have a menopausal product. And they asked, uh, us to come and help them because their sales of their product was plateauing and they had no idea.

[00:12:48] Vivek Banerji: But when they called us, they had a very good hypothesis that you see their menopausal product. It was a natural product, had a lot of evidence. So unlike other natural products, uh, [00:13:00] this product. Doctors would like because doctors like evidence, doctors are scientific and, uh, this is more like a prescription drug, right?

[00:13:10] Vivek Banerji: And, and what they wanted to do was they wanted to test out a few concepts with information and present it as a close to a pharmaceutical product. Now, all this sounds very plausible. The CEO was involved, all the top management guys were involved, and they came to us. We said, we hear you, but we just want to explore it a little more.

[00:13:31] Vivek Banerji: Right. I mean, before jumping into it. So rather than, you know, they wanted to do some focus groups, quantitative research, we said we want to actually go into the doctor’s offices, just explore, see how they actually talk to menopausal women. And uh, this was in a European country. We went there and it was just amazing.

[00:13:53] Vivek Banerji: The, and I, I, I was doing the ethnography myself. I have a kind of translator there and every one doctor do the other, [00:14:00] and I walk into this room and I’m expecting the doctor to cough at natural products, but instead they’re talking about the natural products as if they’re technologies, right? Red clovers like this, and Pollen is like this.

[00:14:12] Vivek Banerji: They started talking about natural product training programs. They went into. And suddenly I realized that, you know, this barrier that the client is imagining doesn’t exist. But the doctor doesn’t have a problem with these natural products. It’s um, and. So first I thought this may be one exceptional doctor.

[00:14:32] Vivek Banerji: Then the pattern started repeating one after the other. But this was still ethnographic work. It’s qualitative work. So we wanted to get a sense of sizing. So we linked some characteristics, looked at their sales database, and basically we found that about 70% of the doctors fall into this category. Right?

[00:14:50] Vivek Banerji: And their barrier with this client’s product was not that, it was not natural, it was, there was no, um. Coherent story about how [00:15:00] the product worked on the menopausal symptoms, like hot flashes and all that. So we got some doctors together, we co-created a story. The sales increased by 40% in six months and following the same strategy.

[00:15:13] Vivek Banerji: They’re market leaders now, and they always give us the credit. They said, wow, like we were going totally in the wrong direction. And to me, this was so interesting because it characterizes all the things I talked about. Our clients had this almost, they were sure that they knew what, uh, the answer was, that they needed more data to convince the doctors.

[00:15:36] Vivek Banerji: It’s a scientific product. And if, if I do the counterfactual, if you hadn’t done the work, they would’ve gone down that trajectory. And a lot of consultants would’ve said, yes, we are being hypothesis driven. And they would’ve confirmed what the CEO thought the hypothesis was. And now you can imagine the impact of this, right?

[00:15:58] Vivek Banerji: I mean, this was, I [00:16:00] think they spent less than a hundred thousand dollars in this, on this project, and now it’s been over 10 years, they’ve been market leaders and they’re very generous. They always say that. This insight kind of drove our strategy, right? So this is an example, and again, it requires you to spot that insight.

[00:16:17] Vivek Banerji: You have to empathize with the doctors. You have to understand why while being scientific, why are they still okay with natural products? And then you realize because they’re empathizing with women and they know that women are afraid of prescription drugs. So there in turns are being em empathetic. And then you also draw analogies.

[00:16:35] Vivek Banerji: It’s like, oh yeah, this is a pattern I’ve seen in soft drinks. Right? So it’s a lot of these things that finally get together and give you that insight, right? And, uh, it’s really powerful. You can see the business impact of that. And I have like numerous examples like this and that’s why I feel, uh, it’s very interesting to kind of go this way and not the.

[00:16:58] Vivek Banerji: Um, okay. Just [00:17:00] mechanically get information, take a hypothesis, test it. They would’ve gone in a totally different direction. 

[00:17:06] Niels Schillewaert: Yeah. Interesting. So if I, if I phrase that, um, uh, you know, when you look at insights efforts that companies or organizations undertake, the, is that what they’re often missing? The contextual human observation.

[00:17:22] Niels Schillewaert: The why, why, why first is that typically what’s, uh, what’s, 

[00:17:26] Vivek Banerji: what’s missing? Sometimes it’s that, sometimes it’s, uh, the first thing is just to say that I don’t know the answer. Right? In this case, I mean, a lot of people would’ve just gone and said that, oh yes, the CEO’s right. It sounds very plausible. And the CEO would’ve been right in many cases.

[00:17:41] Vivek Banerji: If he had gone to the uk, the CEO would’ve been right. You’re right. But so first thing is that then to create a structure where you are. Exploratory. Like that’s why we do ethnography. But sometimes you need some quantitative work, so you have to understand different methodologies and mix it and [00:18:00] then then create impact.

[00:18:01] Vivek Banerji: And then you have to bring it life to life to the people so that they can accept it. And I remember when I presented it to the CEO, I was a little nervous because I said, oh God, I’m going directly against his hypothesis. But I did. And first he said, you realize you’ve said something, which is exactly the opposite of what we believe.

[00:18:24] Vivek Banerji: And then he ended immediately after that, he said, this is art. He said, this is art. I can’t believe how good this is. And I was so relieved because here I was that you know, I’m gonna say that, you know, what we found is exactly the opposite of what you’ve done. So, so yeah, so, so I think it’s a lot of that.

[00:18:40] Vivek Banerji: I think it’s a search for truth, really trying to, within us. Context. C what is truthful? What is useful, right. You know, because we are all in a business context, we, at the end, we do want to kind of increase the sale. So it was a very simple segmentation of doctors that we did. People who like natural products and people who [00:19:00] don’t and told the client, focus on these guys, tell the mechanism story and their sales transformed.

[00:19:06] Niels Schillewaert: Fantastic. Interesting. Um, and you know, it, it, it brings me to a, to a next. Topic, you, you know, the approach that you, uh, that, that you sketch is, is, uh, is, is very much rooted in, in reality and in human, uh, context and, and being able to challenge, right? And not, you know, a hypothesis is there to be quote unquote tested, not to be confirmed necessarily.

[00:19:29] Niels Schillewaert: Um, and in your book, you, you have one of the central ideas is what you call. You know, the concept of the pragmatic polymath. Yeah. Could you explain for, for our, our, our audience what you mean with that and, and why do you consider it to be so important? 

[00:19:45] Vivek Banerji: Yeah, so this came up in 2008. I actually presented it in an SMR conference in Turkey.

[00:19:53] Vivek Banerji: And the origin of it, I was in McKinsey at that time, and I saw like, there are two types of [00:20:00] people. One is the generalists who were very good at kind of. Laying out the problem, but sometimes they were very shallow in solution because they didn’t have depth in any field or maybe one field. And meanwhile, the experts were being pushed to become more and more.

[00:20:18] Vivek Banerji: Focused and more distinctive in one thing. So if you are, you know, a conjoint person, you have to be the absolutely number one on discrete choice. You know, adaptive conjoint, how do you hierarchical base to estimate utilities. So there’s this happening and I was finding that you kind missing out on something here, right?

[00:20:38] Vivek Banerji: Because a lot of, if you really look at our world again, the insights world, it’s fascinating as we were talking about. It’s at the intersection of so many different, uh, fields. A like I said, we have to think differently. You know, we need very different thinking skills. We can’t just go and say, you’ll be analytical and look at the number of disciplines [00:21:00] that get into our, our palette, right?

[00:21:02] Vivek Banerji: It’s behavioral economics, cognitive neuroscience, you know, classic statistics, machine learning, design thinking. So. So to be able to, and none of those are exact substitutes of the other thing. So you have to be able to be sufficiently deep in things like that to be able to create the right approaches.

[00:21:21] Vivek Banerji: Right. So, so that. Is what led me to say that you can’t be this one track person or a generalist. You have to be poly. You should be able to go deep in multiple fields, and that also applies to the industry. Sometimes if you are working on something like a scientific field, like genomics, you cannot understand customers unless you actually go deep into the science.

[00:21:46] Vivek Banerji: So you have this. Need this adaptive learning capacity to go deep. And if you are able to do that, then you automatically get a better sense of truth. You also benefit from the creativity of being [00:22:00] in different fields. I, I’m like a big proponent of hobbies, right? I feel that for me, like my ho, one of my main hobbies, I have two hobbies.

[00:22:09] Vivek Banerji: One is martial arts, Korean, the other is playing jazz piano. And they supply me with so many metaphors. The way I approach business problem solving. So I think it’s a very powerful way and it’s, and I think. We are uniquely positioned to do this kind of work in insights. I don’t think everyone, I’ve heard a lot of people talk about polytherapy, but it becomes very abstract, you know?

[00:22:33] Vivek Banerji: But we are actually creating very pragmatic things. We are helping companies solve some problem the other, yet we have these vast disciplines that we can tap into. So that was the notion of pragmatic poly just don’t, range is important, but with range, you have to be deep. I’m, I’m not ever advocating being a generalist like a.

[00:22:54] Vivek Banerji: You know, a management consultant, but I’m also saying that don’t be a specialist [00:23:00] in one thing. And, and also I should say that I think, uh, in certain cases you need deep specialists as well, and generalists. But, uh, PR for insights leaders, I feel they need to be pragmatic polymaths because they have to constantly, you know, cross pollinate across different disciplines.

[00:23:18] Niels Schillewaert: Interesting. Very good concept. Uh, very recognizable leads to triangulation, uh, that cross pollination of, of, of, let’s say, different disciplines. Um, and, and it’s confirming one of the studies, um, uh, I’ve done with, with SMR back in the days showed that, uh, and the WFA showed that those insights teams that have good interfaces with other disciplines are among higher performers.

[00:23:42] Niels Schillewaert: Um, so it’s definitely, you know, uh, fitting that to make it very concrete. For our audience, how can insights professionals cultivate that way of thinking of that pragmatic poly methodism? Um, how, how can they do that? 

[00:23:58] Vivek Banerji: Yeah. So I [00:24:00] feel, uh, first is to not pigeonhole themselves, right? So we, so starting at the highest level, um, you take your life and say, what are the things.

[00:24:13] Vivek Banerji: Different aspects of my life as needs. Right? And you know, you’ll have hobbies, you’ll have different roles, and bringing the power of that into your work, number one, right? But then specifically when you go on insights, I’m sure you know, you’ve explored various disciplines and depth, right? And I think people need to do that.

[00:24:33] Vivek Banerji: Sometimes you’ll have to learn a new industry. You need to do that. This whole notion is that when you’re working in a context. You need to, um, go deeper. And actually what I say is there are, um, in my book I talk about five things. One is, if you think of insights as a, a simulative practice, you don’t think of it as a narrow practice.

[00:24:55] Vivek Banerji: You think of it as something that can absorb lots of ideas that will [00:25:00] help number one, right? Number two is, and, and again, I keep giving the jazz metaphor because it’s a hobby, but jazz is like that. That it’s open, it’s an open system. You can get ideas from rock, you can get ideas from, you know, Brazilian music.

[00:25:16] Vivek Banerji: It can integrate ideas and insight can be like that, right? The second thing is I feel people should. Uh, always do things they liked, right? So going deep in those things, you’ll make more connections and things like that. Um, there’s something called Micro Mastery. Uh, there’s a person called Robert Twigger.

[00:25:35] Vivek Banerji: He wrote this great book called Micro, um, micro Mastery, and he says, you don’t have to master the field of cooking. You can, if you learn how to make an omelet, well, you will actually learn lots of basic principles. So I keep saying, don’t master machine learning. Take logistic regressions and become really good at that and apply it on various data sets, do different kinds of things, and that [00:26:00] will give you a very good intuition about machine learning when you’re going doing neural networks and things like that.

[00:26:05] Vivek Banerji: Similarly, I say, when you’re doing design, don’t do everything. Do prototype testing. You know, that’s a really good thing. Become very good at it. That allows you, because none of us actually have a thousand hours to master, you know, everything. But we can take elements and kind of go really deep into them and that gives us a very good intuition.

[00:26:25] Vivek Banerji: So these are some of the ideas I talk about five sort of, uh, criteria to do it. And then I talk about orthogonality. It is that if you, um. Um, are doing some qualitative work, do some quantitative work as well, right? So try to create independence, uh, so that, uh, you know, you’re training your brain to think in very different ways, right?

[00:26:48] Vivek Banerji: Stretching it in different ways, but at the end of it, it’s a lot about not pitching a whole pigeon holding yourself. Don’t think of yourself as a quant or a qual person and, uh. [00:27:00] Take things that you need to do and go deep and learn from other people and things like that. Be a learner, basically. That’s the, that’s the point.

[00:27:06] Niels Schillewaert: Be a learner. 

[00:27:07] Vivek Banerji: Curious. 

[00:27:08] Niels Schillewaert: Yeah. Uh, excellent. Thank you for that advice. Uh, Vivek, um, closing off maybe as a last, uh, uh, topic we can’t get around. Ai, artificial intelligence. You referred to it already. Um, when you look at what’s happening, this transformation, which is, which is vast, uh, it’s not only about efficiency.

[00:27:28] Niels Schillewaert: It’s not only about doing better, faster, cheaper, it’s about doing new stuff as well. Um, if you look at it, where do you see AI contributing to the human insight edge? Um, is it in the efficiency part? Is it in something else? What’s your take on that? 

[00:27:44] Vivek Banerji: So it’s really hard to say because it’s changing so fast and every day you get new surprises about the capability of ai, right?

[00:27:52] Vivek Banerji: I mean, you see, wow, this is great what they’ve done. But I think, so it’s very hard to kind of, uh, talk [00:28:00] about too far in the future. But at this time we, we know that people who have strong expertise in the real world. Uh, and have strong judgment are probably the best users of AI because they can use it a lot more creatively.

[00:28:16] Vivek Banerji: And I read about this thing called the, I think it generative AI paradox where, uh, to use ai, well, you need judgment, but if you use AI without judgment, you will not develop judgment. Right? So, so I feel people need to. Um, keep developing their real world experiences. Right? And especially, I think that’s especially true of young people like you and I have had vast amount of experience, but young people need to, you know, have this human experience, work with real people, you know, uh, do sport music, interact with lots of people, travel, work with [00:29:00] real businesses, and, uh, that’s kind of necessary.

[00:29:04] Vivek Banerji: Then I think you, it goes back to the point I was making. You have to be a learner, an improviser. And for insights people, I feel, uh, we are kind of needing be, and this is my, uh, sort of, uh, desire that we are custodians of, uh, a certain amount of humanism, right? So it’s not just bringing the human voice, it’s about thinking about the planet, ecological sustainability and things like that.

[00:29:31] Vivek Banerji: And we can play a big role in things like that. So it’s. That’s, that’s how I feel about, uh, the insights profession per se. That the future is not inevitable. We can shape it right in a more human centered, sustainable way. And as insights people, we can play a big role in that, right? So, yeah. 

[00:29:51] Niels Schillewaert: Very good.

[00:29:52] Niels Schillewaert: Interesting. Very final topic. As you know, the, uh, MRII is is all into developing, you know, skills and, [00:30:00] um, you know, looking at how, how professionals should, should develop themselves. Um, so if you would give a piece of advice, uh, of somebody. Early, mid-career, uh, what habits or skill, uh, skills should they develop, um, to get or maximize the chances to get to the insights edge as you describe it?

[00:30:21] Vivek Banerji: Yeah, so the first thing is, which I think we’ve talked about, is to making, learning how to learn a priority and choosing environments where they can learn. So if I were in my twenties, I would look for an organization where will I be mentored by people and I won’t be replaced by an agent and things like that.

[00:30:42] Vivek Banerji: Who is gonna give me that priority, right? So that’s really important. I also believe in, you know, this whole practice, this is, uh, people need to, young people should learn that if they practice a lot, they’ll become good at things, right? So, [00:31:00] um. I say this with a little bit of conviction because they, this came to my life much later.

[00:31:05] Vivek Banerji: So, and the third thing is what we were talking about trying to, in this world, get more and more human experiences, you know, learn art, go into the depths of science, travel, meet people, because that will ultimately make us better at, uh, even using ai. Even so making, learning a priority and choosing that, believing in practice, which is an aspect of learning.

[00:31:29] Vivek Banerji: And enriching our kind of more kind of human consciousness and expanding that, right? So those would be my sort of, uh, suggestions. 

[00:31:38] Niels Schillewaert: Fantastic. I love it. I love the mentoring. I love the, you know, making mistakes if you want. Uh, because that’s what we learned from. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, really, really like it and be really a practitioner.

[00:31:49] Niels Schillewaert: Um, Vivek, this has been a really fascinating, uh, conversation. Um, your book, the Inside Edge reminds us that, um, even in a world where there was an [00:32:00] abundance of data and AI tools, yes. Here it is. Show it to the, uh, to the audience. Um, that the real differentiators is in our ability to think differently, to experience, to connect to people, to ask better questions.

[00:32:15] Niels Schillewaert: Um, and that’s how we’re gonna drive, uh, action. So for our listeners, um, we can share details of vi effects book, uh, once more. It’s called the Insight Edge, crafting Breakthroughs in a World of Information overload. Vivek, I want to thank you for joining us, uh, in this Insights and Innovators, uh, podcast to our audience.

[00:32:36] Niels Schillewaert: Thank you everyone for, for listening. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please follow the podcast and share it with your colleagues, uh, who care about the future, uh, of insights. Um, I’m Neil Ard. I was your host today. Um, I’m the head of research and methodologies at Conveo. And looking forward to a next edition of our podcast.

[00:32:56] Niels Schillewaert: Thank you so much. Thanks so much, li. 

[00:32:58] Vivek Banerji: Thank you so much. This is great. [00:33:00] 

[00:33:00] MRII Announcer: Thanks for joining the Insights and Innovators podcast for Market Research Institute International. Click subscribe to never miss an episode and visit us@mmri.org for more market research insights.