From Turbulence to Trust: Managing Resistance in Insights Projects with Brianna Sylver

[00:00:00] Brianna Sylver: What are the different types of resistances? Some of them are. People just not liking where things are going, right? Like they’re like highly skeptical of where, where things are headed, or maybe they feel threatened and there’s sort of some active sabotage, whether it’s conscious or unconscious towards your project.

[00:00:18] MRII Announcer: Welcome to MRII’s Insights and Innovators podcast where we talk to top market research professionals to get their inside stories about innovative and enduring best practices. Now here’s your host for today’s episode. 

[00:00:32] Jon Last: Welcome to today’s episode of Insights and Innovators Turning Turbulence into Trust.

[00:00:37] Jon Last: Brianna Sylver on Innovation and Insights, and I’m your host and former MRII, president Last. Brianna is the founder and president of Sylver Consulting and the author of the fascinating new book, leading Through Free Fall, how Innovators Turn Turbulence Into Trust. In today’s conversation, we’ll explore how researchers and innovators can navigate uncertainty, reframe resistance, and create safe landings for their [00:01:00] ideas in the real world.

[00:01:01] Jon Last: Brianna, it’s great to have you on insights and innovators. 

[00:01:04] Brianna Sylver: I’m so pleased to be here. Thanks for having me, Jon. 

[00:01:07] Jon Last: Yeah. This should be a great conversation because, you know, I, I, thinking back on my career, most of us really dread turbulence in projects, but, but your book actually suggests as I think we, we’ve learned, um, it’s inevitable and, and even necessary.

[00:01:20] Jon Last: So, so let’s start with, you know, how researchers, how should we think differently about those moments when everything feels like threefold? 

[00:01:28] Brianna Sylver: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think, you know, your initial thought around it’s something that we try to avoid is spot on, and I would say oftentimes we internalize that turbulence, that resistance, that pushback that we get.

[00:01:42] Brianna Sylver: Many times we can internalize that as a ding to our own competence as leaders to say, you know, what did I not do that I should have done? Uh, you know, how could I have done this differently, et cetera. And so my book is saying we should stop trying to pretend, uh, that everything is [00:02:00] smooth and that makes a good project.

[00:02:02] Brianna Sylver: Instead, we should recognize that we are all change makers, and by nature of that, we all go through a grief curve of some sort, uh, when it comes to embracing change. And so. You should then therefore expect negative emotions to come before the positive. Just like a grief curve would be where you, you know, first are in denial and then you get into resistance and then you get into bargaining and depression before you finally are like, okay, I can accept that this is where we are and this is where we need to go.

[00:02:31] Jon Last: Hopefully, hopefully that grief curve doesn’t take as long as it might in, in true grief circumstances, but yeah, it’s, is that’s Maslow’s hierarchy or am I confusing it? 

[00:02:40] Brianna Sylver: Uh, it’s, it’s actually a full grief curve. It’s, uh, Kubler Ross is the Kler Ross. That’s, that’s right. Of that. And, you know, actually on that, like what is the timeline of the grief curve, I think is a really great question.

[00:02:52] Brianna Sylver: Um. And I think the reality is it’s different for each person and it’s different for each types of projects. So generally [00:03:00] speaking, the more transformative the change or the more like counter to maybe like culture narratives, the change is that’s, that’s being proposed. It’s going to take people longer time to go through that grief curve.

[00:03:13] Brianna Sylver: Than, uh, than if it’s, you know, a minor change, if you will, or if you know somebody is really invested in that area. Let, let’s say you’re gonna be doing a, you know, a project and you’re gonna be changing something that somebody owns in the organization and like that is what they’ve been doing for the past 20 years.

[00:03:32] Brianna Sylver: That’s probably gonna be a longer grief curve. Uh uh, you know, it’s gonna take longer to travel that grief curve than, you know, for somebody who’s just being asked their opinion on something, but they aren’t necessarily invested in what is. 

[00:03:45] Jon Last: Yeah, no, it’s, it, it seems to embrace one of my, one of my themes throughout, which is knowing your audience and, and, and knowing it throughout all layers of the organization.

[00:03:52] Jon Last: It’s, it’s a pretty powerful way to reframe it. Um, and, and you also create a framework, um, where you talk about suiting up free fall and [00:04:00] safe landing, which are, are three stages of, of the process. Walk us through those and, and why they matter for research professionals. 

[00:04:06] Brianna Sylver: Absolutely. So yeah, the book is structured on three sections.

[00:04:11] Brianna Sylver: Um, and so the suiting up section is basically all the things that you can predict that you would need to have anchor points. So it’s about really conscious, consciously setting your project up for success. Um. The area of free fall. These are all the things that come out of left field that you could never predict.

[00:04:29] Brianna Sylver: Um, yet you have to react. And so you have the, you have the choice in that moment. Do you react with race or do you react with frustration? Right? Yourself? Um, and so you sort of rebel against that. So. The, the chapters and the tools that are in, that are in this side. This, uh, section of the book is all around how to navigate resistance with more clarity and resilience.

[00:04:51] Brianna Sylver: And then the safe landing piece of it is all really around like how to empower your implementation partners and really ensure that what gets created, your [00:05:00] insights that get created, your innovations that get created, that they actually have the ability to, to be implemented and to really come out into the world in the way that you desire of them.

[00:05:11] Jon Last: You know, it’s, it’s an interesting way to frame it. When, when you talk about suiting up, obviously that’s, you know, how you kind of ensure alignment before the turbulence hits. What, what role can insights professionals play in in, in that stage? 

[00:05:25] Brianna Sylver: Yeah, so I think you have to think about it, although everybody talks about the word or the phrase actionable insight, right?

[00:05:30] Brianna Sylver: Everybody’s like, I need actionable insight. That’s what everybody wants. And a lot of times when people are referring to that, in their mind, they’re thinking, we need an actionable deliverable. But the reality is that the deliverable to say that you’re putting way too much. Way too much, uh, intention on the deliverable, too much weight on the deliverable.

[00:05:53] Brianna Sylver: To really have that actionable deliverable, you have to really back up to think about the entire journey, uh, [00:06:00] that you bring your stakeholders on. And so like one thing in the, in the suiting up section for instance, is a, is it one chapter is all around defining project success. So what does success actually look like and feel like to, to the stakeholders that you’re engaging with, and not just like, what ends up on an RFP?

[00:06:19] Brianna Sylver: ’cause that tends to be kind of like what’s in people’s head, but the things that actually are really in their heart and is gonna make a difference between, you know, the, the project being perceived as a success long term, uh, versus sort of just a, a quick win, uh, for, for the. You know, for the moment.

[00:06:38] Brianna Sylver: Another aspect is project scoping. You know, there’s a whole tool in that section that’s really around like, how do you actually scope a project to fully question whether there’s blind spots that your stakeholders are bringing into that conversation. That could be if, you know, if you kind of just act based on what they’re telling you the problem is and the general direction that they’re pointing [00:07:00] you in, and you don’t sort of question that with a little healthy dose of skepticism, you could end up.

[00:07:05] Brianna Sylver: Traveling down a road that ultimately isn’t going to get you to where you wanna be. And so that whole suiting up section is just about these things that are kind of like known things that you can do that kind of just like act as mitigation, uh, aspects, uh, as you start to move through, uh, through your project.

[00:07:24] Jon Last: So, so let’s move into the, the navigating resistance component, the free fall component, if you will. Certainly one that, yeah. I kind of relate to a lot when, when, when looking through the book and, and just thinking about some of the, the experiences in my career. In fact, you know, you were talking before about the inevitability of disruption within a project, and it’s funny because.

[00:07:46] Jon Last: Back long before, I want to admit probably some 25 plus years ago when gentlemen, who some of the listeners may know Ed Sugar and I were, were, were working through, uh, MRA at the Time Insights Association. We did [00:08:00] seminars called Anatomy of a Research Project, and one of the components, you know, this was like a live workshop.

[00:08:04] Jon Last: We brought people together. It was like we gave them a case study and then about 40 minutes into them working on it. Collectively, we blew it up. We like created, like I love that ous factor. Um, but you’re, you know, so, so that’s definitely something that I think people need to grapple with. And, and you kind of take a really, you know, I love a half full, it’s more of like a three course full perspective, that resistance isn’t really a roadblock.

[00:08:29] Jon Last: Um, how do you get researchers to to, to learn to embrace it that way? 

[00:08:34] Brianna Sylver: Yeah. I love, first of all, that exercise that you had people go through. I think that that’s, that’s so, so key. Um, and the resistances, I think first, first of all, we have to just kind of think about what are the different types of resistances.

[00:08:45] Brianna Sylver: Some of them are. People just not liking where things are going. Right? Like, they’re like highly skeptical of where, where things are headed or, you know, maybe they feel threatened. And so, you know, there’s sort of some active sabotage, [00:09:00] whether it’s conscious or unconscious towards your project. Right? And then there’s just some that are just like changes of priority, like.

[00:09:06] Brianna Sylver: You know, a something new is happening in the organization and what was important is no longer important, or the timeline you thought you had is not the timeline that you do have, et cetera. Right? So I think there’s two separate types of, of resistances that, you know, while they both kind of create a sense of discomfort and anxiety, um.

[00:09:28] Brianna Sylver: Within you as the innovator leading projects, uh, how you deal with them is slightly different. So when it comes to things that are more people based, like the, you know, being s skeptic, skeptical, or the sabotage, like, I think the first thing that we need to be conscious of is not becoming. Reactive to it.

[00:09:48] Brianna Sylver: So like, not sort of taking the bite, right? Like if somebody’s coming at you, the very instinctual thing is like, you wanna go back at them and it’s like, and it’s kind of like getting to that [00:10:00] point where, where you, you catch yourself and you kind of like scale out to be like, hold up. Something is going on here that is not really about what we’re talking about, it’s about something else.

[00:10:12] Brianna Sylver: And so let’s pause and really figure out what that something else is. And so throughout the free fall section of the book, there’s various tools that are shared to sort of support that pause moment and that reflection moment so that then you can lean into it with a bit more compassion, a bit more grace.

[00:10:32] Brianna Sylver: Not, not go into the reactive mode associated with it. Right. And then from the. From the, the, the more like logistical aspects. You know, you still can sort of take on that information, but you wanna be like, no, I, I cannot reduce the timeline of this project by three weeks. That is not possible. Right? Like, you just kind of wanna be like really resistant to that and saying, oh wait, hold up.

[00:10:55] Brianna Sylver: If they need to reduce the timeline by three weeks. Do they really need all of the [00:11:00] deliverables in three weeks Exactly. Or do they just need a portion of it for some meeting that’s happening? And so, you know, again, it’s like tools for like, how to pause and come to that conversation in a more centered and grounded space so that ultimately as the researcher, you’re, you’re being able to, to maintain the integrity of the research that you’re doing, um, and not compromise on the outcomes, but you’re being able to meet your stakeholders where they need you to be as well.

[00:11:27] Jon Last: It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s empathy. It’s putting yourself in the shoes of of, of that particular stakeholder. I, again, I can recall times where like people would say like, oh, don’t go see him today. He’s not the right time. And, and in a way that was kind of tricky, right? But there’s more to it than that, at least in how it impacts on you.

[00:11:43] Jon Last: And, and, and you have, one of the tools that you mentioned within this section is, is called Sling Energy vampires. I found that interesting. How does that play out in practice? 

[00:11:52] Brianna Sylver: Yeah, so the Slay Energy Vampires, this is part of the suiting up section and, and it’s all around like being preemptive to [00:12:00] know where the energy drains and sucks in your projects might be.

[00:12:03] Brianna Sylver: Okay. And so it is really sort of taking this Debbie Downer sort of position and bringing your whole team together. It can be, you know, just your internal team. It can be with stakeholders, you know, your broader stakeholder team, which whichever feels right for the project. But essentially, you know, suggests you create a spreadsheet, it’s got five columns in it.

[00:12:22] Brianna Sylver: And so column A is really like all the energy drains that you could foresee disrupting the project. And it could be things like, well, what if it’s hard to find the people that we’re looking for? Right? 

[00:12:32] MRII Announcer: Right. 

[00:12:32] Brianna Sylver: That might be a challenge. It could be. Hey, there’s 26 different stakeholders as part of this.

[00:12:37] Brianna Sylver: Like they all can’t have a deciding voice. We won’t move forward on this, right? Like, so it can be a range of different things. And then the second column is then grading the potential impact of that drain on the project. So just giving it a one through three rating and then you come together as a team.

[00:12:53] Brianna Sylver: So usually we do that as separate, like individual people, just kind of populate the spreadsheet, right? And then we come together as a [00:13:00] team to start to then discuss each of those. So we start with the things that are noted as. Threes and then sort of talk through it and saying, ultimately with the goal of saying, is that something that we need to take action on now to eliminate or mitigate this risk?

[00:13:13] Brianna Sylver: Or is it something that we just need to have in our collective consciousness as we move through? Um, you know, the, the next column is really what is the next step actions that we’re gonna take. And then, you know, column E is basically for any other contextual insights that would be important. And so we have found that this particular.

[00:13:30] Brianna Sylver: Tool does two things. One, it allows us to be preemptive. To say, okay, hey, we think these things could become energy drains and sucks on the project, so we’re gonna take, you know, A, B, and C now to avoid that. Or the second thing, if it’s not something you can act on now, it just creates this active dialogue among the team so that as soon as that thing pops up, should it pop up?

[00:13:55] Brianna Sylver: We’re addressing it versus sort of people. Pretending it doesn’t exist for a little while [00:14:00] until it becomes more of a firestorm to deal with. 

[00:14:02] Jon Last: It’s kind of like scenario planning, it sounds like. Which is, which is something, yeah. It’s, you initially think about in terms of the mechanics of, of the, of the project.

[00:14:09] Jon Last: That’s, that’s, that’s pretty cool. You, you also, and I think you were kind of touching on it, uh, a few moments ago, when you talk about emotions and messy humanists. I, I love, you know, the, the whole scenario of of, of project scope creep or, you know, quick shift and, and so much of that driven by certain human and personal dynamics.

[00:14:31] Jon Last: Talk a little bit about how that’s kind of really helped lead to breakthroughs in projects. 

[00:14:38] Brianna Sylver: Yeah, so when we. Interact with one another. We match people’s energy, right? So like if we take just like a, the project scoping piece of this, uh, as an example, like oftentimes, like at least in a research function, we.

[00:14:55] Brianna Sylver: We’re oftentimes not there, right at the genesis of, Hey, we need to do this project. [00:15:00] Somebody else has thought about this. And then they’ve come to us, whether we’re an internal group within an organization or external like you and I are, right? Like they come to us and say, Hey, we’ve got this project. And so by the time they’ve come to us with this project, they have simplified this enough for themselves to grab their, to kind of put their, put their, uh, to really put their hands around it.

[00:15:21] Brianna Sylver: And they oftentimes will come with some convicted energy like. This is the problem and this is how I wanna solve it, and I just need your help to do it. Right? Yep. And so even the most tenured, uh, insights and innovator can be like, okay, yeah, great. I yes, you understand this, you’ve been living it. I get it.

[00:15:39] Brianna Sylver: Yes, I can support you in that. Yet I think a lot of times work is ineffective because we kind of get stuck in that, in those blind spots. So, you know, this is another example where sort of like really queuing into convicted energy to then say, hold up, let’s pause for a second and just get into a dialogue.

[00:15:59] Brianna Sylver: [00:16:00] Like, what is it that you really wanna do and why do you wanna do it? And you know, kind of like a whole project inquiry, scoping script that, that I share that really then starts to unpack what is really going on and really starts to challenge those blind spots. And so, an example of where this was.

[00:16:16] Brianna Sylver: Incredibly key is we’ve done work for NASA over the years and at one point in time. Uh, the team had come to us. They had developed a proprietary whiteboard. Uh, it was meant to support the International Space Station planners. They had developed it to spec to the engineers, yet it just sat dormant in the corner and nobody used it after it was developed.

[00:16:38] Brianna Sylver: And so they came to us and said, Hey, you know, Brianna, we need to do like a, a usability type of project where we better understand what features to build into this whiteboard so that people will use it. Right? Yeah. As they started to share what they were doing, I was like, you know. I don’t think the problem is the whiteboard.

[00:16:54] Brianna Sylver: I think the problem is, is that you’ve missed the understanding of what collaboration truly means to these [00:17:00] international space station planners. And so we ended up shifting the project from being about product usability to being about workflow and process and how that would enable collaboration. And ultimately what came out of it is a roadmap for how to, uh, how to improve seven.

[00:17:16] Brianna Sylver: Other systems that they have as part of their workflow workflow to create more integration. Whereas had we just accepted at face value that this was a product usability project, I’m sure we could have come out with new features for that whiteboard. But I am also quite confident that it would’ve had no impact on collaboration for the International Space Station planners.

[00:17:38] Jon Last: It’s a great example. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s the perfect example of asking questions instead of just taking orders. And so many times researchers can fall into that order taking trap. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, again, as, as some of the other guests on this series have talked about deploying a more consultative approach as opposed to just being a doer.

[00:17:57] Jon Last: I, I think that’s absolutely. [00:18:00] Let’s talk a little bit about the safe landing. Um, what are some of the, the common pitfalls that you see in moving from ideas to, to real world adoption? 

[00:18:11] Brianna Sylver: Yeah. I think the biggest, uh, common pitfall is that people assume that involvement throughout your project, uh, equals commitment to take action on the insights coming from the project.

[00:18:25] Brianna Sylver: You know, so I think as, as research and researchers and innovators, we say, you know, Hey, we want stakeholders engaged from the beginning, right? Uh, all the way through the process. And I think that that certainly is, is necessary. However, I think there’s another step that a lot of times people miss, which is then saying, okay, based on the insights that we have generated or the innovations that we’re, that we’re suggesting, how does this actually translate into your next steps?

[00:18:52] Brianna Sylver: How does it. Slot into your roadmaps, for instance. And so more attention needs to be paid to how to [00:19:00] actually support, uh, stakeholder teams to really translate those insights into action and for really finding space for those new ideas into existing workflows and roadmaps that they have. 

[00:19:12] Jon Last: Any, any other practical advice that you’d have for research leaders who, who want to make sure that they actually stick and don’t just inspire people.

[00:19:21] Brianna Sylver: Yeah. So one workshop that we oftentimes will, will facilitate, uh, there’s actually two that I think are really, really powerful. So the first is what we call go forward workshop. And so this is when you’ve got like specific innovations, right, where it’s like, okay, we wanna take these new directions. And so bringing forward the teams that would be in charge of implementation and really now looking at.

[00:19:44] Brianna Sylver: Those new actions compared to a roadmap that they already have. And so the first, first thing you need to understand is you need to have alignment around what are the key goals. Like if you had to deduce like what are the two to three goals of that team and how they’re meant to serve the organization right now, what are [00:20:00] they?

[00:20:00] Brianna Sylver: And then you sort of benchmark through this, go forward workshoped the new ideas compared to what they’re currently working on. And it could be that the new ideas still get sort of shelved. For a period of time because they are not gonna support them in moving forward on those goals the same level. And it could be also that then they say, gosh, you know, these new ideas are going to turbocharge our ability to achieve those goals.

[00:20:26] Brianna Sylver: And so despite the fact that we already have alignment around this roadmap, we need to go to get alignment around a change to that roadmap. So that’s one. And then another, uh, workshop that we run is what we call a hot rocks workshop. And this is when it’s like. There’s a clarity on the direction and there’s alignment on the direction that people wanna go, but there’s not necessarily the level of traction towards that direction that people are desiring.

[00:20:50] Brianna Sylver: And so this is about sort of bringing people together to figure out what are the things that have to be done in the next 90 days. And you really only wanna have. Three to seven [00:21:00] actions of the team that need to be done in the next 90 days to achieve that. And so we’ve seen that level of sort of chunking things down to be really supportive to teams, particularly those teams that kind of get stuck where they like where things are headed.

[00:21:14] Brianna Sylver: They’re fully aligned on it, but the action steps are not necessarily showing that alignment. 

[00:21:20] Jon Last: So. Lots of, you know, I, I, I’m, I’m particularly intrigued by the whole human aspect by, by understanding that personal dynamic of the environment within your working and, and, and you kind of describe yourself as leading with kindness.

[00:21:34] Jon Last: How does that leadership style, shape innovative outcomes? 

[00:21:40] Brianna Sylver: Yeah, it’s all around compassion. So, you know, one of the funny things about this book that as readers read it, they’re, they, I make the analogy of like a care bear, um, and like a care bear, care Bear of love, I think is what I call it. And, and it’s, it’s, it’s silly and it’s, it’s kind of stupid, but at the same time, like it’s such a good image and a good [00:22:00] talisman for me because when I get into those moments where.

[00:22:04] Brianna Sylver: Where, you know, it’s like those pause moments, like, okay, something bigger is happening here than what you know I am. I am re receiving or dealing with it right in front of me. By bringing that image into my mind, it allows me to show up with a lot more compassion, a lot more like centeredness and groundedness, A lot more care to just really say what actually is happening here, and then how can we meet each other halfway in this process.

[00:22:32] Brianna Sylver: I, 

[00:22:32] Jon Last: I, I often tell my teams, you know, act like you own the company, and I don’t necessarily mean it being our company, but the client’s company from a product standpoint. Yeah, we’re, we’re, we could talk for hours. I, I do want to ask you one more thing before we wrap up today and, and, and that’s kind of taking that crystal ball future look, when we think about the coming years and all the disruption and change in, in marketing and research and organizational dynamics.

[00:22:59] Jon Last: What [00:23:00] turbulence do you think researchers should be preparing for in the next chapter of innovation? 

[00:23:05] Brianna Sylver: That’s a great question. So, as you said, you know, the global economy is changing dramatically, you know, from supply chains to international relations to just major disruptions and work processes and talent pools, et cetera, because of ai.

[00:23:18] Brianna Sylver: And so, you know, given the pace and the scale of all of that change, I think it’s critical for organizations to really intentionally manage the emotional energy of their workforce through that change. You know, you have already like this trending phrase of emotional intelligence. Um, and this is important.

[00:23:35] Brianna Sylver: Whether things are going well or they’re going bad, you know, I mean, I think people will try to. They’ll put more attention to that if it’s going bad, because like something’s gotta give. Right? Um, but it’s important just as much as if, uh, if, if, if things are going well because that’s gonna be the secret sauce to turbo boost those good time moments.

[00:23:54] Brianna Sylver: So the key takeaway is that, you know, a higher level of emotional intelligence is needed to [00:24:00] navigate all of this unprecedented change that we’re experiencing. And you know, the beautiful thing about leading through free fall is that it really offers some concrete tactic tactics for how leaders can really lead, lean into that call to lead the emotional energy of themselves, their teams, and their stakeholders.

[00:24:20] Jon Last: Such a fascinating but critical aspect of, of what we all do on a, on a day-to-day basis. And, and what I think will be one of those immutable truths that stays consistent despite all of the, the change happening around us. Brianna, thanks so much for joining us on Insights and Innovators. We, we’ve learned so much, and, and again, I wish we, we could go along on this just so much great stuff.

[00:24:40] Jon Last: I hope listeners, uh, will be, uh, intrigued enough to pick up a copy of the book. Um, thank you all for tuning in and we will see you on a future episode of Insights and Innovators, and we’re thanks 

[00:24:52] Brianna Sylver: so much for taking. Okay, 

[00:24:55] Jon Last: go ahead. Say it. Edit it back in. 

[00:24:57] Brianna Sylver: Uh, just, I, do you mind if [00:25:00] I share the, the download in that, that process?

[00:25:03] Jon Last: Yeah. I don’t mind at all. I don’t mind at all. 

[00:25:05] Brianna Sylver: Okay. So, uh, Jon, I so appreciate you having me here, and I also wanna offer just a free gift to all of your listeners. Uh, a free gift of a. Of the book. The book, so they can access that, that leading through free fall.com insights and innovators using the ampersand for the, and just as in your PO podcast and specifically the chapter that I’m gonna give is all around that project scoping script that I give, gave a little bit of a hint to earlier on in the conversation.

[00:25:33] Jon Last: Excellent. I really appreciate the generosity there, and again, thanks for being with us, 

[00:25:37] MRII Announcer: so appreciate it. Thanks for joining the Insights and Innovators podcast for Market Research Institute International. Click subscribe to never miss an episode and visit us@rii.org for more market research insights.