From Researcher to Investment Banker with Kristin Luck, Oberon Securities

[00:00:00] MRII Announcer: Welcome to MRII’s Insights Innovators podcast, where we talk to top market research professionals to get their inside stories about innovative and enduring best practices. Today’s episode is sponsored by QuestionPro. QuestionPro is the web based software for creating and distributing surveys. With our intuitive wizard interface, digital distribution of surveys,

[00:00:31] MRII Announcer: Welcome to our podcast

[00:00:33] Katie Gross: from market research practitioner to banker. I’m Katie Gross, and today I am thrilled to be joined by Kristen Luck, Managing Director of Oberon Securities, co founder of GrowGetter, founder of Women in Research, board member to multiple companies in our industry. And last but not least, legend.

[00:00:52] Katie Gross: So Kristen, I was actually trying to remember when we first met, and I honestly cannot remember. It feels like you’ve always been very omnipresent in my career. [00:01:00] You’ve always been there to help me make some of the really pivotal decisions I’ve made, and of course you’ve been a true role model, so I’m so excited to be here with you today.

[00:01:08] Kristin Luck: Yeah, I appreciate you having me. I’m looking forward to our chat.

[00:01:11] Katie Gross: Awesome. So you’ve had a really unique career trajectory from research assistant to entrepreneur, investor, and now banker. So I’d love for you to walk us through that journey.

[00:01:21] Kristin Luck: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting because I think if you look at those roles in isolation, they don’t make a whole lot of sense.

[00:01:28] Kristin Luck: I’ve had people reach out to me and say, you’ve had a very sort of interesting career trajectory. And they can’t really see how all those things link together. So, obviously, I started out on the full service research side of the business. I started out, I think, 1996. I was working at Lieberman Research Worldwide, which is now Material Plus and, um, you know, I had worked my way.

[00:01:50] Kristin Luck: Through university as a research assistant at a social science research firm. So I, I, you know, I’d already kind of fallen in love with, with research. Uh, and then I got my job at [00:02:00] Lieberman and was there a couple of years and really felt like that industry was going to head online. We were doing primarily phone and mall work at that time, and of course, some qualitative work.

[00:02:10] Kristin Luck: And I’d been, you know, a very gutsy 26 year old marched into Dave Sackman’s office and said, you know, I think the whole. Research industry is going to go online and I want to be part of it. And at the time he said, you know, we’re really not going to go online. And Dave and I have laughed about that conversation several times, but he did a really important thing at that point.

[00:02:29] Kristin Luck: He said, if you really believe in online research and that is really what you want to do, then you should find a place to do that. And he wasn’t firing me. He was just encouraging me to really follow that passion. And I think that’s kind of defined my entire career, which is. I, I gravitate toward the things that are the most interesting for me.

[00:02:44] Kristin Luck: So online research was a very, you know, pivotal point for me career wise. I went and joined AC Nielsen to build their first online research platform and then quickly realized that Nielsen is a, is a tricky place to run a tech startup. Ended up leaving, uh, co founding OTX, [00:03:00] uh, which was one of the first big online research firms.

[00:03:03] Kristin Luck: And then we sold that. I ended up starting a data visualization platform company that I then sold to Decipher. And part of the reason I wanted to join Decipher is because I had, I had never licensed software before. So I had built software and I used it within the service capacity, but I hadn’t actually licensed it.

[00:03:21] Kristin Luck: And so I think that’s another really defining piece of my career is that I’m always trying to learn something new with every step. And so software licensing was something I really wanted to do. We, you know, we eventually went into the software licensing space and after we sold that company. I thought, gosh, what, what do I want to do next?

[00:03:39] Kristin Luck: You know, I was really too young to retire. Uh, and so then I thought, uh, well, what, what is it that I really love? And at that point, what I really loved wasn’t really the starting of companies so much, it was really the growing and scaling all the challenges that come with building a company and then that sort of segued into.

[00:03:55] Kristin Luck: How, you know, how, how can I help founders monetize their businesses? So doing pre M& [00:04:00] A optimization, kind of preparing them for that process, having been through it three times myself. And then that just segued into, well, you know, I, why don’t I just become an investment banker? Then I can do the entire M& A process.

[00:04:11] Kristin Luck: And I very fortuitously ran into Corey Luskin, who’s a banker in this vertical. And I ran into him at an IEX conference. And he said, you know, you should just get your must have banking license. And of course me. Always want to learn new things and be very overly confident. A lot of the time said, of course, yes, of course, I’ll do that.

[00:04:29] Kristin Luck: And, uh, yeah, I think 8 months later, I got my banking license and I was off to the races. So, but it all, you know, it all sort of melt melts together. If you, if you kind of look at it from that perspective of being interested in online and then starting tech companies and then helping companies grow scale and then the monetization kind of the last piece of that.

[00:04:49] Katie Gross: Yeah. That is fascinating. I remember hearing you, um, and Sima mentioned that you were getting your banker’s license and studying that had to go into it

[00:04:57] Kristin Luck: and I was like,

[00:04:58] Katie Gross: you guys are crazy.

[00:04:59] Kristin Luck: [00:05:00] Yeah. We felt crazy. Yes. Yeah. We were taking our tests at the same time. So it was great because, you know, we had another person to bounce.

[00:05:09] Kristin Luck: Our frustrations off of and our, our worries, I would say every, every test I went into, I was terrified. Yeah. I hadn’t taken a test in 20 years, probably at that point.

[00:05:18] Yeah.

[00:05:18] Kristin Luck: So to have to really study that hard, which was literally every night and every weekend for six months, and then take a test in a. On a subject that I really only had known about from one side of the table, which is from a seller’s perspective, but then to understand the whole ecosystem, the entire baking process and all the nuances to it and how companies are valued and and all the things that go into a sale process.

[00:05:40] Kristin Luck: It was, it was really eye opening.

[00:05:43] Katie Gross: Sure. So let’s talk about some of the kind of financial literacy and business growth areas. Um, a lot of research professionals, you know, really focus on insights, methodologies, you know, and sometimes building phenomenal technology, um, as well, but they sometimes struggle with that kind of financial [00:06:00] acumen.

[00:06:00] Katie Gross: So what do you think are the biggest financial blind spots that you see across many companies in our industry? Okay.

[00:06:05] Kristin Luck: Yeah, I think it’s tough because like most people I think are in this industry are like me. I, I didn’t, I didn’t go to business school. I graduated and I was a researcher and I went into research.

[00:06:18] Kristin Luck: And when you’re working in a research business, you really are not trained on business finance and that’s. So I think that’s a critical part, not only just being a C suite executive, but also understanding how the business makes money so that you can be the most instrumental employee that you can in terms of grow, growing that company.

[00:06:35] Kristin Luck: And so I think financial literacy is really important. It’s the number one skill set that I encourage folks to learn, particularly if they want to move into a C suite role, which is really understanding not only how the business makes money, but how to read those financial statements are super important.

[00:06:52] Kristin Luck: And then I think. A lot of folks overlook financial ratios, which you should really be attuned [00:07:00] with if you’re running and managing in business. And particularly if you are a trying to optimize that business for growth, or you’re doing pre M and a optimization work. And so when I talk about financial ratios, I mean, everything from like activity and efficiency ratios to liquidity, um, You know, solvency ratios, profitability ratios, valuation ratios, like those are all things that we kind of look at from banking standpoint to determine how well the company is performing and what it’s, you know, prospects are for future growth as well.

[00:07:31] Kristin Luck: So I think just just becoming more familiar with that. I think it’s not a skill set that we naturally have as researchers because we’re focused on analyzing data, not so much financial data.

[00:07:42] Katie Gross: Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I think Mark Simon, who was a previous boss of mine, also a former podcast guest, always said to me, the more senior you become in a company, the more your life will be inside spreadsheets.

[00:07:53] Katie Gross: It’s true.

[00:07:53] Kristin Luck: Yeah. I was just telling someone last week, I have not conducted research in over 20 years. [00:08:00] I’ve been running businesses once, you know, there’s the business of research and then there’s the business of running a research business. Those are two very different skill sets.

[00:08:07] So,

[00:08:08] Kristin Luck: although I love research and I understand it and I could certainly, I could certainly conduct a study today if I needed to.

[00:08:14] Once

[00:08:14] Kristin Luck: you get to a certain point in your career, you’re really not doing research anymore. You’re running the business and growing the business as you know.

[00:08:21] Katie Gross: Yeah, for sure. And of course you’ve, we’ve talked about a little bit, but you’ve advised so many companies on scaling and selling, um, and exiting. So what’s the biggest piece of advice that you have for research business owners who are looking to grow?

[00:08:33] Katie Gross: Like what is that kind of secret to growth and scale?

[00:08:37] Kristin Luck: Yeah, well, I think unfortunately, it’s never just one thing. And I think that’s where people, people sort of get lost a little bit. You know, the activities that get you from to 1 million in revenue to 5 million in revenue to 15 to 20 and past that, those are all very different growth stages.

[00:08:55] Kristin Luck: And the activities and the investments you make are going to be very different at those different stages of growth. Yeah. [00:09:00] Um, and so I think a lot of time people get stuck working on something that worked to get them to 5 million, but that will not get them to 10 or 15 or 20 or beyond. And so it’s really all always about using data to tune your own business performance.

[00:09:15] Kristin Luck: And I think 1 of the things that is always fascinating to me is that research firms are literally the worst about using research and data to tune their own business. I’d like, I go into a lot of consulting engagements or pre M and a optimization, uh, engagements. And I’m always surprised at how little data is being used to really understand how, how you can make the business either grow more quickly or become more profitable.

[00:09:40] Kristin Luck: And that’s, that’s really the key. And it goes again, back to that financial and, you know, or that data analysis of, of financials versus just focusing on the data that you’re analyzing for your clients.

[00:09:52] Katie Gross: Yeah, for sure. And I think you’ve mentioned it, um, you know, we chatted this morning, but also in the past, I’ve heard you say the same thing, which is [00:10:00] you probably already have as many customers as you ever need.

[00:10:03] Katie Gross: And trying to be all things to all people is too much. So focus is what really helps as well. Yeah,

[00:10:11] Kristin Luck: I think, yes, I think that one, we don’t spend enough time growing and nurturing existing client relationships, which always have the opportunity to be larger and, um, and, and stickier than, than what we think they can be.

[00:10:25] Kristin Luck: Uh, yes, I think that’s, that’s super important. And I, I also think too, that a lot of folks. Focus on very transactional short term returns versus really investing in the long term. And when I say investing in the long term and I, I rant about this quite a bit because I’m passionate about marketing, as you know, folks don’t spend enough on marketing, they try to muscle through sales with no brand awareness, you know, not getting in front of clients eyeballs over and over it again.

[00:10:54] Kristin Luck: And, you know, marketing is a long game strategy, but it can drive exponential. Growth [00:11:00] at a much lower cost for, you know, your customer acquisition cost goes down dramatically, but a lot of people are not in it for the long game. They get very focused on, am I seeing an immediate return on this activity today?

[00:11:11] Kristin Luck: And if they don’t, they stop doing it. It’s kind of like LinkedIn posting. Yeah. I, you know, I’ve coached many CEOs on the use of social media and they’ll make a post and they’ll say like, Oh, well, I only got 10 likes. And so I just gave it up on the first post. And I would tell folks. I’ve got over 10, 000 followers on LinkedIn and sometimes I get 400 likes on a post and sometimes I get 10.

[00:11:31] Kristin Luck: It’s, you know, I try to hone it and figure out what the primary reason is behind what makes one post really sticky versus another. And I, you know, of course I use data to form what I post and how often, but, uh, I think, I think folks just give up way too soon. Yeah.

[00:11:47] Katie Gross: For sure. I am very lucky to work for, um, a founder CEO who owns an ad agency previously, in which case we are huge believers.

[00:11:57] Katie Gross: You are.

[00:11:58] Kristin Luck: You’re everywhere.

[00:11:59] Katie Gross: A different [00:12:00] podcast, uh, episode with him coming up, but the purpose of building a brand in market research is important and what does our brand stand for? And it’s certainly not just.

[00:12:14] Katie Gross: I’m going to pivot a little bit over to women in research. So you founded Women in Research to support and elevate women in our industry. So a huge thank you personally, from me for this. Um, I’m a big believer in the mantra, if you see it, you can be it. So how has WIRE evolved and, you know, what impact have you seen on the industry since, since you started it, founded it, through to today?

[00:12:36] Katie Gross: Yeah.

[00:12:37] Kristin Luck: Uh, yeah, wires evolved a lot. I mean, when I first started hosting wire events, it was, it was very unintended. There wasn’t a whole lot of intent behind it. I would say I, I, there was a woman that had moved to Los Angeles from San Francisco and she was saying, Oh gosh, I don’t know any women in research in Los Angeles.

[00:12:53] Kristin Luck: And I said, Oh gosh, I know lots of women. I’ll just send an email to every woman I know. And then we got together for cocktails and did that, you [00:13:00] know, I think for two or three years without, you know, without a whole lot of content or purpose behind it. And then at one point it was Just getting larger and larger and larger.

[00:13:06] Kristin Luck: We’d started hosting events in New York and San Francisco and some other markets. And I thought, you know, we really need to have more of a purpose behind this. Like, how do we, you know, how do we help women navigate in more effectively into C suite roles? And what are the skills that women really need to, to learn and how do we provide more opportunities for women to move, to move into those roles?

[00:13:27] Kristin Luck: And so I think that’s really been the focus is if you look at the research industry as a whole. The majority of researchers are, are female, but if you look at the C suite and at the board level, it’s, it’s slim pickings. Definitely better than when we started. I mean, I do think that, you know, the work that we’ve done at WIRE has had a really significant impact on the industry.

[00:13:49] Kristin Luck: We’re seeing a lot more female entrepreneurs. We’re seeing a lot more women in C suite roles. We’re seeing a lot more women on board. So, you know, we’re moving in the right direction, but it’s, you know, it’s a slog for sure. [00:14:00]

[00:14:00] Katie Gross: Yeah, for sure, and I think even just attending WIRE and WIRE Exec events for me, there were two key moments I think in my career with you.

[00:14:07] Katie Gross: I once said we were chatting about, um, you know, networks and I was like, well, like I’ve met Dan Foreman, but I can’t possibly call him I’m far too junior. I was an SVP at the time, by the way.

[00:14:17] Kristin Luck: Yeah.

[00:14:17] Katie Gross: That’s not too junior. It’d be a good talking to for that comment.

[00:14:20] Kristin Luck: Yeah. I, I’m sort of of the mindset, and maybe this is because I come from more of a sales background, uh, is that.

[00:14:28] Kristin Luck: The worst somebody is going to say is no, but I find that people in this industry are just incredibly generous with their time and really gracious about speaking to folks, particularly if they, you know, if, if you’re respectful of their time and, and yeah, it’s pretty rare that I have had somebody in my career that I’ve reached out to just flat out, ignore me or say no, I’ve been, people have been really generous with their time and I, yeah.

[00:14:50] Kristin Luck: So I encourage people to. Yeah. Don’t, don’t feel like you’re too junior or that you don’t have enough gravitas to have those conversations because you probably do.

[00:14:59] Katie Gross: Yeah, for [00:15:00] sure. I remember calling you as well, right before, um, taking the role at Susie to ask you for career advice. Um, I was really nervous.

[00:15:07] Katie Gross: Was I going to be good enough? Am I ready for the C suite? And you simply said four words to me, which is take the bleep job. Um, and four years later, here I am as the president of the company. So yeah, look at you. happened without your push. What challenges do you think that women still kind of face in market research today?

[00:15:25] Katie Gross: And how can we really drive change, um, that isn’t, that isn’t just kind of like, take the job, please call the person.

[00:15:32] Kristin Luck: Uh, I think, you know, the, one of the big things, and again, I feel like we’re doing a much better job at WIRE of, Communicating this and providing, um, avenues for, for women for this. Then, then we probably have ever, ever been in the, in the past.

[00:15:47] Kristin Luck: And that’s like really understanding the path of the C suite and what are the skills that you really need to know in order to get into those roles. And then also providing the channels for women to actually. You know, get, get that [00:16:00] education. So we launched our accelerate program a couple of years ago, which one of our board members, Tiama Hanson Drury was really, you know, she was really the, the brains behind that and, and took the reins and put that program together.

[00:16:11] Kristin Luck: We’re actually launching an, a new program with an accelerate this year, which is all about financial mastery and management, both at the business level and at the personal level. Uh, I think oftentimes women also don’t, don’t manage their personal finances in a, in an aggressive way and really understanding how to create wealth over a period of time is super important and not a skill set that a lot of women have or were brought up with.

[00:16:35] Kristin Luck: I know I, I sure wasn’t, uh, and so that financial acumen, I think is. It’s really important. And then I think one of the other challenges that women have, and I think we’ve benefited a lot from the pandemic because of this is just the juggling of work versus family responsibilities. I think as progressive of society as we, as we live in the majority of caregiving and, and um, Uh, and running a house still falls to [00:17:00] women.

[00:17:00] Kristin Luck: And so I think the more flexibility and the more opportunities we give women to figure out how they can, how they can do that juggling act, because no one can do it all. You know that I think that the bill of goods that we were sold, you know, certainly when I was a kid and teenager, that women can have it all.

[00:17:14] Kristin Luck: We can do it. Yes, we can. Have it all and do it all. But we’re going to be really exhausted and cranky. So we have to pick and choose. And you know, there’s only so many hours in a day. And I think that the more that employers can be understanding of that and give women the tools to manage their lives more effectively, the better off we are, um, you know, not just as companies, but as an industry.

[00:17:36] Katie Gross: Yeah, for sure. Um, a great client of ours, Yelena from Reckitt actually said, women can have it all, but not all at the same time. So choose your career and your family kind of life over the course of your, uh, lifetime and how can you balance it across the lifetime as well?

[00:17:52] Kristin Luck: Very good. Good words of advice.

[00:17:54] Katie Gross: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Chris, and it’s been a true pleasure to chat with you. And again, thank [00:18:00] you so much for being such an amazing role model for our industry.

[00:18:02] Kristin Luck: Yeah, thank you.

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