From Insights to Action: Delivering for the C-Suite with James Cummings

[00:00:00] James Cummings: The phrase I’m most cautious of is AI driven foresight. I think that one of the byproducts of AI is that. Somehow there is a belief among a lot of people that the algorithm is infallible. They’ve become accustomed to just typing in a question and getting an answer. And of course, the big weakness of AI is you ask it a silly question.

[00:00:25] James Cummings: It’ll almost certainly give you a silly answer. 

[00:00:28] MRII Announcer: Welcome to MRII’s Insights and Innovators Podcast, where we talk to top market research professionals to get their inside stories about innovative and enduring best practices. Now here’s your host for today’s episode. 

[00:00:41] Stan Sthanunathan: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining today’s episode of Insights and Innovators.

[00:00:46] Stan Sthanunathan: I’m your host for today, Stan Sthanunathan. Today’s topic is transformation for creating impact. In other words, making sure that the insights function finds its mojo and is seen as [00:01:00] critical for business decisions that the C-Suite people are grappling with. Today we have lined up. A great guest for this topic, James Cummings, SVP of Insights at Kenvue.

[00:01:12] Stan Sthanunathan: JC has spent a long time in the world of insights and it the, and therefore has a very balanced point of view on the discipline. In this episode, JC shares his perspective on how to take the insights function to the next level based on his experience and all the big companies he has worked in, whether you’re on the client side or on the agency side, I’m a hundred percent sure you’ll find this insight that he’ll be sharing with us.

[00:01:38] Stan Sthanunathan: Incredibly invaluable in shaping your career, as well as shaping your role of your agency or the function that you’re leading. Welcome, JC. Thank you very much, Stan. It’s a pleasure to be here. Same here, Gehi. Thank you. And it’s an honor to, uh, interview you. Great to get this conversation started. What are the big changes [00:02:00] that you’re witnessing today in the world of insights and what are the big threats and what are the opportunities as you see them?

[00:02:07] James Cummings: Wow. Um, opening with an easy one. I like it. So, uh, with that softball, uh, so what are the big changes? I think the, one of the biggest changes you just see in Everyth is in, is in everybody’s titles. I mean, I’m the VP of Consumer and Business Intelligence. Previously, I’ve been the the head of insights and analytics, and it’s not enough to just be the human, the consumer and shopper insights person.

[00:02:38] James Cummings: Um, insights team need to be organizational operators. Deep human empathy is a cost of entry. But we also need to be data and tech literate in a way that perhaps we didn’t need to be when I started my career 30 years or so ago, far too long, you know, wired into the IT data and tech metric matrix as well as [00:03:00] marketing sales, r and d.

[00:03:01] James Cummings: We need to speak a lot of internal languages, able to synthesize and translate our um, findings for many different audiences coming from different perspectives. Other big change data, abundance. Everybody has data. Not, not all of it’s good, but everybody has a lot of data. Everyone therefore has insight.

[00:03:24] James Cummings: Everybody needs to be an analyst. One function can’t do it all changes our role. We need to consider evolving to be coaches, to be holders of best practice, to set standards. Um, and it’s a cliche, but more data, more understanding, more speed. It brings more complexity and you know, we, with complexity, I think one of the biggest changes that I’ve seen is managing that complexity by bringing the right balance of flexibility and structure.

[00:03:56] James Cummings: Uh, historically it was all about structure. You know, being [00:04:00] able to, um, make the simple things simple, create a simp, create one way of operating so that global organizations. Could operate efficiently with common language, common metrics, common measures, and that’s still important. But the tech side of the business is moving so fast.

[00:04:18] James Cummings: We also need to have the flexibility to experiment, to bring in new, to reflect the fact that we will have different insight horizons in different markets based on the data that’s available. And hence, getting that balance right is quite different. Um. So I, I guess the second part of your question, threats and opportunities.

[00:04:40] James Cummings: I’m gonna work on the assumption that opportunities are the other side of the coin from a threat. Hmm. Uh, but fundamentally, the existential threat for the insights function is in this world where everybody has data, everybody at least believes that they can do insight that. We might share [00:05:00] titles with chief data and analytics officers or other parts of the organization.

[00:05:05] James Cummings: There’s always a threat that insights gets pushed down the organizational value ladder. Um, and with ai, AI can do a lot of the basic analysis, um, that perhaps insights functions were depended on the past. So in some people’s minds, we might have lost some of our competitive edge. But the irony of that is the core proposition of the insights function has never been more relevant.

[00:05:33] James Cummings: Um, we are super well suited as a function to be the humans in the loop. Um, we are independent expert, able to connect the dots, able to tell the story. While having the empathy to bring a human touch and make sure that the organizations that we’re work, the organizations are serving, ultimately serving their end boss, which is, uh, the consumer, the shopper.[00:06:00] 

[00:06:00] James Cummings: Um, and I don’t think anybody else in the organization is able to do that. But in that context, it’s critical that we keep those skills super sharp, that we don’t allow ourselves to just become. Project managers, implementers, um, change managers. The phrase I’m most cautious of is AI driven foresight. Um, I think that one of the byproducts of AI is that somehow there is a, a, a belief among a lot of people that the algorithm is infallible.

[00:06:34] James Cummings: They’ve become accustomed to just typing in a question and getting an answer. And of course, the, the big weakness of AI is you ask it a silly question. It’ll almost certainly give you a silly answer, um, and hallucinates all the time. Just to give you an example, a little humble brag, if I may, but. Um, one of my daughters is, uh, quite talented with [00:07:00] English.

[00:07:00] James Cummings: She’s an English major, but obviously she minors in other classes like psychology, and she’s constantly getting picked up by the AI algorithms that the school are using, uh, stating that the pieces are so well written. They must have been written by Gen ai, but. But that’s not the case. And so we’ve got to be really careful that the organization can get seduced by the, um, perfection of ai where we know that that’s not true.

[00:07:31] James Cummings: Uh, and that in fact even the ability at times for AI models that are based on the past to predict the future in this. Sort of complex adaptive system that is the global economy, especially right now is, is quite limited. Um, so our ability to, to really understand the application of ai, how it can generate scenarios, but ultimately it’s not about one answer.

[00:07:59] James Cummings: Mm-hmm. [00:08:00] It’s about a horizon of different futures and requiring that, that human judgment to determine. Um, which are most likely how to hedge, how to spread our bets, how to win in a future state is really fundamentally human. And I think that that is a huge opportunity, um, for the insight for the insights function.

[00:08:22] James Cummings: Hmm. Um, and not least of which, because you know, these big questions, these big AI systems, um, they can tend to get deployed transversely and, uh, really cutting across a lot of different functional boundaries. And the insights function, having a broad remit, being able to connect the dots, positioning across marketing and sales as being the voice of human.

[00:08:46] James Cummings: Um, and, and that and our focus on driving real decisions, I think is just a giant opportunity for us. 

[00:08:53] Stan Sthanunathan: Beautifully put J Thank you so much. I think, you know, the, the whole notion that AI will solve [00:09:00] world hunger problem is something that, you know, I always struggled with because, um, my definition of AI is slightly different.

[00:09:08] Stan Sthanunathan: I always call it augmenting human intelligence. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I, you know, in my own company also, we call it, uh. Augmenting intelligence as opposed to artificial intelligence. Exactly. Notion of artificial sounds so synthetic to me. Uh, anyway. Uh, but you know, the, the, you reference human understanding and human centricity and you know, the final boss and so on and so forth.

[00:09:36] Stan Sthanunathan: When you, when you talked about, uh, do you see that as a unique competitive, uh, angle for us as a function? The importance that we deserve in an organization. And why do you say that? So,

[00:09:58] James Cummings: absolutely. I, I, I think, I [00:10:00] think that at the end of the, at the end of the day. Marketing, sales, driving demand and activating. It’s quite simple. Mm-hmm. And whether that’s true in an online or an offline complex context, we managed to make it impossibly complicated. Um, but really making sure that we’re winning across these multiple, um, consumer horizons really.

[00:10:29] James Cummings: Is fundamentally a human process. Understanding the science of behavior that’s constantly evolving as consumers are stimulated by more and more things. Being able to find that right balance of um, uh. Standardization with flexibility so that we can produce genuinely unique solutions. That win in the marketplace is critical.

[00:10:54] James Cummings: And, and for me, the the what the human centricity provides you, your [00:11:00] point of difference. For the large part, everybody has the same data. Everybody has this, uh, working with similar. Frameworks for growth, yet some people are winning and some people are losing, and those people who find their edge are able to connect the dots better, faster, in a more unique and more original way, are able to take risks, yet at the same time measure and understand the things that are working and why they’re working so that they can optimize.

[00:11:34] James Cummings: Um, very rapidly. I don’t buy into the view that it’s just a scale game and the person with the most data wins and all markets ultimately devolve to a market leader and a fast follower. Um, you know, as the big middle gets squeezed. Um, most of, most big players are actually getting nibbled to death by the new, the agile, the insurgent brands, the brands [00:12:00] that really understand their channel, their consumer.

[00:12:03] James Cummings: Better than anybody else. So I think that, uh, as I said, as a function, we can find the magic symbiosis between machines and humans. We can make that understanding and foresight real. Um, we can help leverage the online infinite shelf, manage new deliverable models, um, based on. Excuse my language, that most old school of frameworks understanding who needs what, when, where, and why.

[00:12:31] James Cummings: Right. The basics are pretty much what they’ve always been. 

[00:12:34] Stan Sthanunathan: Yep. They’ve always been the same. Absolutely. So given that, um, you know, obviously there are some different skills that are required. To make sure that we all succeed in the marketplace, in our respective roles. So based on your experience, what are the leadership and influencing skills that are required to be a change agent in a world which is changing [00:13:00] so rapidly?

[00:13:01] Stan Sthanunathan: Give us, so bring that to line with some specific examples from your own. 

[00:13:05] James Cummings: Okay. As you, as you know, Stan, I have to be a little bit careful with specific examples. Yeah. Um, but look, if I take the one example, the biggest change vector at present that I’m seeing in the business seems to be the, um, implementation.

[00:13:22] James Cummings: Of agent based AI solutions, particularly into domains like media and pricing. So wearing my analytics hat for a minute. Um, and as I, as I think I mentioned earlier, what’s different is, is that these changes are really replacing a lot of the work that perhaps junior team members would’ve done previously.

[00:13:45] James Cummings: Um, consequently the. Change that. That change vector is particularly prominent among the more senior, senior middle managers and above. So. [00:14:00] So in addition, the groups of people that we are needing to empower are to some extent becoming smaller and more specialized. So I think it’s that capacity to connect with more senior leaders to help them understand the business case, the rationale for change and.

[00:14:21] James Cummings: Make the complicated, simple, but not simple minded. At the end of the day, we’ve got a whole new quote, co. The irony is we’ve got a whole new cohort of people that need to be expert users in these solutions, um, that are not necessarily, uh, digitally native. Um, and so. We have to be very clear in how we communicate.

[00:14:45] James Cummings: Be empathetic, as empathetic with our internal stakeholders as we are with our external, with the, the humans that we’re serving. Um, really help folks to understand, bring them along a journey at their own pace. Tailor our [00:15:00] materials so that we can help. More senior leaders to really champion our agenda, um, and to help drive these new technologies so that we can focus on the big questions.

[00:15:10] Stan Sthanunathan: Hmm. Again, it goes back to, you know, uh, the comment that you made earlier on about, uh, human centricity. This could be, you know, not just human centricity, but also stakeholder centric. You know, that’s, that’s what you’re talking about. And how do we talk in a way in which, you know, you, you don’t, uh, you, you land messages clearly.

[00:15:29] Stan Sthanunathan: That’s, that’s really useful. Thank you so much. Um, now let’s, let’s click it down to, uh, a slightly different level. You know, I mean, you, you manage a, a, a good team of people. Uh, what advice and coaching would you give to your team members to make sure that they’re able to create the type of impact and value for senior leadership?

[00:15:51] Stan Sthanunathan: That you feel is actually vital for their own long-term success? 

[00:15:57] James Cummings: Um, okay. So the [00:16:00] advice that I always give folks is, is firstly seize opportunity where, where it arises. Don’t be afraid to take a warrior stance, be unafraid of conflict. I think there’s, there is a danger with insights functions that. We can become organizational people pleasers.

[00:16:20] James Cummings: Mm. And I think that that ulti, that, that there’s nothing great, there’s no bigger kiss of death than taking that position. Um, we need to have a point of view as almost, especially when it’s unpopular, um, that we can’t forget. Why we are here that we need to be the independent voice that speaks truth to power.

[00:16:41] James Cummings: That we are connecting the dots, that we’re focused on driving better, faster decisions that we don’t get bogged down doing other people’s jobs for them. Um, that we are very, very clear on our value proposition to the business. Um, while at the same time. Recognizing that right now, the game [00:17:00] change you already alluded to, it, is the biggest game in town, right?

[00:17:03] James Cummings: We’re all caught in this transf mania that is endless and ongoing. Uh, and within that, I, I think that one of the advice that I always give people is, is that always bear in mind that change is a social process. Um, that actually our capacity to bring people together to create that adaptive space, um, that it’s not about it, it’s a little bit of a myth.

[00:17:30] James Cummings: I think that the change management industry has, uh, managed to perpetuate that if you do a certain set of things to get to a certain set of things in a certain order, you inevitably get to a. A certain outcome we’re actually, it’s fundamentally about people bringing them together, letting them talk things through, recognizing everybody’s on a journey and part of our job is to bring them along with us with a clear view of what the end state is.

[00:17:57] Stan Sthanunathan: Awesome. You know, I picked that [00:18:00] couple of phrases, uh, which I’m gonna be liberally using going forward in situ, obviously. Uh, what is Tia. Uh, that, you know, it captures it beautifully for me. There is, there’s absolute, uh, many around transformation, number one. Number two, change is a social process. Very profound, very profound.

[00:18:23] Stan Sthanunathan: And I think, you know, when you start looking at it that way, you’ll behave differently. You’ll include people differently. You’ll influence people differently because it is a social process. So, you know, wonderful. Very well said. Very well said. Now. We talked about people, you know, uh, in your team, but let’s talk about, you know, your agency partners.

[00:18:48] Stan Sthanunathan: Yeah. How can, and what would be your advice to them to elevate the game? 

[00:18:52] James Cummings: Okay, so the advice I always give my agency partners is firstly. I need [00:19:00] them first and foremostly. I need them to help make the simple things simple and to simplify my job and simplify the, the simplify. My team as, as I mentioned earlier, the biggest threat to insights functions is we just get bogged down in.

[00:19:18] James Cummings: The project management side of the business, and we’re not focused on the tip of the spear and adding value. Um, within that, if I’m working with agencies that are bringing in new, it’s really critical that they help me to retire the old, uh, too often. We’ve got legacy systems in place, you know, all those Excel spreadsheets that exist across the business, um, whi for which we have much better internal solutions.

[00:19:43] James Cummings: I need my agencies to help me with that task. Um, and then, you know, don’t just bring data Tech PowerPoint. I really need strategic partners, not suppliers. Um, and, you know, I’m consolidating to a certain extent into a, a [00:20:00] smaller group of suppliers that can really help me. To do that because as we mentioned, we’re bogged down and well, we’re not bogged down.

[00:20:08] James Cummings: We’re driving transman. The business is getting infinitely more complicated. The, the, the speed of change is accelerating. I need people that are not, that are not just bringing me solutions, but are helping to elevate. The capabilities of my team, as well as creating opportunities for my team to excel the partners that they work with, I see as just being a critical driver of engagement for, for my team.

[00:20:38] James Cummings: And I really need them to work with me to make sure that we’re elevating the entire function. 

[00:20:44] Stan Sthanunathan: Mm-hmm. That’s very, very nice. Thank you so much. Um, I’m gonna, uh, request you to, you know, put on a. Look at an eight ball, so to say. Yeah, yeah. And, and see and [00:21:00] predict. Where do you see the world of insights in, let’s say, three years time?

[00:21:04] Stan Sthanunathan: I’m not asking you for an impossible timeline, like five years, because who knows, but in three years time, where do you see you have a point of view? 

[00:21:13] James Cummings: Yeah. Uh, you know, you know, the, the danger with these questions right, is always that we. We kind of overestimate the short term and underestimate the long term.

[00:21:24] James Cummings: Mm-hmm. Um, so I’m probably in danger of, of falling into both of those traps. But, um, I, I actually think that, I actually think we lose the title insights. I think that that insights itself is. Um, becoming a commodity is a phrase. I mean, part of that’s a function of the fact that most, a lot of organizations still don’t really understand insights versus data versus facts.

[00:21:50] James Cummings: But let’s put that aside. Um, insights is becoming a commodity. Uh, I think we need to position ourselves and, and title ourselves [00:22:00] as decision enablers, um, and really. Really using that proprietary blend of data, algorithmic, understanding analytics platforms, human empathy to drive, um, faster, better decisions across that right balance of, of structure and flexibility.

[00:22:23] James Cummings: I think we’re gonna see more. We’re gonna see, we’re gonna, we’re gonna operate with. A smaller number of platform-based suppliers that can make the simple things simple. And then we’ll work with a, a, a much larger group of smaller, very, very specialized suppliers that have proprietary tech algorithms perspective.

[00:22:49] James Cummings: And really getting that balance right, um, is really, I think is going to be the biggest change in that three year horizon, you know? 

[00:22:59] Stan Sthanunathan: [00:23:00] Jesse, as you were talking, a PowerPoint chart popped up in my mind. It’s actually Squire four corners being data tech algorithm and human centricity. Yeah. Right in the center is decision enablement.

[00:23:17] Stan Sthanunathan: Right. And how all these things converge towards driving this enablement. That’s what I saw when you, when you, when you were talking, I also Exactly. Your words. I’m not, 

[00:23:28] James Cummings: I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna steal that my friend. You know, unfortunately, we’re all corporate citizens and can only communicate via PowerPoint, so it is all good.

[00:23:37] Stan Sthanunathan: Yeah, that’s, that’s wonderful. So I think, you know. Uh, Jesse, first of all, thank you so much. I wanna bring a close to this conversation. I think you, uh, I learned a lot in this conversation today. I learned a lot, and I’m a hundred percent sure people will listen to this podcast, uh, will go away with some incredible pulse of wisdom.

[00:23:56] Stan Sthanunathan: Some, you know, good thought to have that, you know, hopefully [00:24:00] keeps them awake at night and makes them think a little bit differently about what they want to do going forward with their life in general. And more importantly, their role in insights and, and even more importantly, where do they see themselves going forward and what kind of path they want to chat about for themselves.

[00:24:15] Stan Sthanunathan: So Jesse, thank you so much for this time that you spent. Really grateful for that. Uh, and, uh, you know, I look forward to staying in touch with you. Thank you so much. 

[00:24:25] James Cummings: Thank you so much, Stan. It’s been a pleasure. Take care my friend. 

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