Finding Your Seat at the Strategy Table with Pam Forbus, Mondelez International

[00:00:00] MRII Announcer: Welcome to the Insights and Innovators podcast from Market Research Institute International, where top research professionals share practical insights and innovation strategies to help researchers deliver more business impact and earn their strategic seat at the table. Today’s episode is sponsored by Sports and Leisure Research Group.

[00:00:21] MRII Announcer: Sports and Leisure Research Group provides leading sports, travel and media brands. With actionable, customized marketing, research driven insights. Now here’s your host for today’s episode.

[00:00:34] Stan Sthanunathan: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining today’s episode of Insights and Innovators. I’m your host for today, Stan San. Today’s topic is finding your seat at the table, a topic that we are that’s very close to all our hearts.

[00:00:50] Stan Sthanunathan: In other words, it’s all about making sure that insights drives mission critical business decisions that makes a C-Suite. Want to hear from you again and again. [00:01:00] Today, we have lined up the perfect guest for this topic. Pam Ferber, senior Vice President and Global Chief of Insights and Analytics at Mondelez’s International.

[00:01:11] Stan Sthanunathan: Today is week three for her, but she’s not new to this industry. Pam is an iconic person in our industry, uh, for a long time. She recently received Lifetime Achievement Award from the Market Research Council, and previously she was honored by Forbes as one of the most influential CMOs, a role that she’s also played.

[00:01:33] Stan Sthanunathan: So here we have a person who’s been on both sides of the table, so it’s, it’s a very unique opportunity for us. In this episode, Pam, share her perspectives on how to take the insights and analytics function to the next level. So whether you’re on the client side or on the agency side, you’ll find our insights extremely valuable in shaping your career as well as shaping the role of your agency or the function that you [00:02:00] represent.

[00:02:00] Stan Sthanunathan: So, welcome, Pam. Really thrill. Excuse me. Really thrilled to be here. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time out. I know as you start your, uh, new role, there’ll be a lot of conflicting priorities. Really appreciate the fact that you’ve taken time to, uh, do this, uh, podcast on behalf of MRII.

[00:02:19] Pam Forbus: My pleasure.

[00:02:20] Stan Sthanunathan: Yeah.

[00:02:20] Pam Forbus: Pam,

[00:02:21] Stan Sthanunathan: uh, can you briefly describe one example of when you delivered an insight that really made a difference to the senior most leadership of your company? Hmm. This example, uh, can be either, uh, as, uh, insight professional that the role that you played, or, uh, something that you saw when you were A CMO or per oh hmm.

[00:02:41] Stan Sthanunathan: And, and that insight was actually delivered to you. Say, wow, that’s an impactful one. Is there one example that comes to your mind?

[00:02:47] Pam Forbus: There’s, there’s quite a few, um, uh, one that sticks out that kind of really. Changed my mindset about what my job is, was, um, we were working on a Frito-Lay strap [00:03:00] plan, and we had a lot of new data about consumer demand and where it was headed.

[00:03:07] Pam Forbus: A lot of foresight’s work. And this led to us actually, um, facilitating the strap plan for the company. And it led to a business case to create a lot more small bag capacity in our plants. And that’s not something that insights typically gets involved in, but because we had a foresight on where demand was headed, uh, we made the case and, and it was something the operations had been trying to get for, for years, but just couldn’t make the business case.

[00:03:32] Pam Forbus: But we did.

[00:03:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:33] Pam Forbus: And, uh. If you can remember back then there was only a couple of multi-pack versions of Frito-Lay. Now there’s dozens, and then I know it’s a multi-billion dollar business, so I think it’s probably the one of the biggest impacts we had, but that’s just one example. I.

[00:03:50] Stan Sthanunathan: That’s a, that’s a great example of, you know, an area that insights has impacted, which you would normally not associate with.

[00:03:57] Stan Sthanunathan: Yes. Usually it’s about, you know, oh, you know, we will give you deep [00:04:00] insights of consumers communication, so on. But this is a fabulous example. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. And how, you know, having gotten that example, uh, I’d love for you, uh, to tell us about, uh, yourself. Why don’t you give the audience a quick intro into your career and your role today?

[00:04:20] Pam Forbus: Sure I look, I won’t drain my LinkedIn profile that’s out there for anyone to go look at, but I will say, um, I’d like to talk about, like early on where I kind of got the passion for this is I was actually working in the advertising agency on account side and I saw someone really command. Senior leader’s attention because they knew the consumer deeply.

[00:04:43] Pam Forbus: They knew had the data and they were account planners at Shiat Day, you know, known for great account planners. And I said I wanted to be that. Hmm. And I, and I worked really hard to make that career decision. It took, took a couple years to make that switch. I took a title. [00:05:00] Uh, I went back in title. I went down in pay to make the client side, uh, switch over to Frito-Lay.

[00:05:05] Pam Forbus: I actually started as a contractor to, to see if I would work out, you know, and um, I think my motivation. Has always been about having influence and impact. Mm-hmm. That really motivated me and, and I felt like data and insights was the keys to the kingdom to do that. Mm-hmm. And so I quickly, you know, rose through the ranks, so to speak, because I didn’t see my job as creating.

[00:05:31] Pam Forbus: Research reports.

[00:05:32] I

[00:05:32] Pam Forbus: saw my job as impacting and influencing senior leaders ’cause that’s where my drive was.

[00:05:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:37] Pam Forbus: So I think that led to bigger and bigger responsibilities and more and more and bigger roles. And I, it was, I’m sort of an accidental senior leader. I think I, I called myself a market researcher, but I think what we were, were growth leaders and, and we had a track record to, to do that.

[00:05:55] Stan Sthanunathan: I, I love that. Uh. Phrasing growth leaders. I think if you can [00:06:00] have that as a moniker or a North star, uh, sky is the limit. Literally, sky is the limit. Yes. That’s fabulous. Mm-hmm. The way you distilled it into two words, growth leaders.

[00:06:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:11] Stan Sthanunathan: In your, uh, lifetime achievement award acceptance speech, you made an observation that insight functions tend to be buried a few layers below the CEO.

[00:06:22] Stan Sthanunathan: Why do you think that happened and what can we learn from that?

[00:06:27] Pam Forbus: I don’t, I don’t know why it happened. Uh, this all came out from a conversation I was having with Ed Keller, your executive director, and, um, he was telling me, remember when the market research industry was just getting formed, their clients were the Henry Fords, the CEOs.

[00:06:43] Pam Forbus: And um, over time, you know, these companies have built. Bigger marketing departments and bigger, bigger functions and, and insights didn’t really keep up with their level of stature and influence. I don’t know why. Mm-hmm. But, um, [00:07:00] these, it is the question, right? Like I, I started thinking about wow, you know, if, if we’re not.

[00:07:07] Pam Forbus: At the table where, where the big questions are being asked, what questions are we being asked? And they’re probably pretty tactical and they’re, they’re not that they’re not important, but are they the most important? So if, if we’re buried several levels below and, and, and to your research suppliers,

[00:07:25] they’re

[00:07:26] Pam Forbus: probably working with a junior insights manager, right?

[00:07:29] Pam Forbus: Uh, to answer some questions from a mid-level marketer and who knows if that was what the CEO needed to, to know, and probably not. We can probably assume not. So how do we make sure, if you wanna be a growth leader, you gotta understand what the most important levers are to growth. Mm-hmm. And are you influencing those levers or are you influencing a teeny little piece of the puzzle?

[00:07:53] Stan Sthanunathan: No, that is, that is, that is really, really, uh, fascinating. I think the. Asking ourself a fundamental question on [00:08:00] what is a question that we need to answer. Mm-hmm. If you lose track of that, then you’ll get caught in day-to-day operations. Uh, and that’s, that’s a really good perspective. Thank you so much. Uh, now if, if you cast back in your, uh.

[00:08:13] Stan Sthanunathan: Enormously successful career. What do we need to do to get the status that we deserve? Given the importance of consumer centricity, I have not come across one company that says consumer centricity is not important. Everybody says, yeah, the most important thing. And we are the consumer, uh, insights provider.

[00:08:33] Stan Sthanunathan: Us within any organization. What do we need to do to get the importance that we deserve?

[00:08:40] Pam Forbus: Hmm. That is the question, isn’t it? Like, um, everyone, and I think it’s truly in, you know, true in intent. When I say I am our company’s consumer centric, the consumer’s at the center of everything we do. I don’t think that’s, they’re not saying it without being.

[00:08:58] Pam Forbus: True. They, they really [00:09:00] want that. But it’s like when you look at your actions, what, what is the center of your, of your decision making? It’s really about decision making. Where are you putting your money, your time, your people, your efforts? That is your strategy. And um, for me, consumer centric organizations are data decision informed.

[00:09:21] Pam Forbus: Uh, companies. Mm-hmm. Because that data is consumer data. These, these are breadcrumbs, whether it’s sales data or behavioral data or, you know, insights data. That is consumer data. And if you’re not making decisions with that data at the center, you’re not consumer centric. You’re, you’re just. You’re just saying you’re consumer centric.

[00:09:40] Pam Forbus: Mm-hmm. So this isn’t about, you know, having deep empathy and understanding the consumer’s emotions and, you know, motivations. That’s part of it for parts of what we do. But this is about every decision you’re making. What, where’s the consumer and what is what, what would be the consumer reaction? Mm-hmm.

[00:09:57] Pam Forbus: And is it getting you closer to your goals or not? That’s [00:10:00] being consumer centric.

[00:10:02] Stan Sthanunathan: So what could we do differently? Yeah, to really make sure that we, uh, contribute to making data at the center of all decision making is a trick that we are missing.

[00:10:16] Pam Forbus: Well, I think some companies culture is just more data-centric than others, so it’s gonna be easier probably to have an impact.

[00:10:24] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:25] Pam Forbus: Financial institutions, you know, insurance, they’re always in. Um, others, you know, probably it’s a cultural thing whether, um, you know, are they, where’s the power structure in within an organization? Um, and do you understand that? Are you, are you there when decisions are being made and are you contributing value?

[00:10:48] Pam Forbus: And a lot of times those decisions are CFO decisions influencing the CEO. And if you can’t speak the language of the CFO, if you can’t put what you’re doing in financial terms for the [00:11:00] organization, it becomes a language barrier and it becomes a disconnect. Mm-hmm. And then they’re skeptical, right?

[00:11:04] Pam Forbus: Skeptical that you even understand what, what. What the company needs.

[00:11:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:11:08] Pam Forbus: So I think number one is learning to talk the, the CFO. Mm-hmm. I think the other thing is, is just a mindset change. For the insights functional, especially the leader, your job is not to generate research and insights. Your job is to change behavior and decisions of a company.

[00:11:28] Great. And

[00:11:28] Pam Forbus: that, that requires a very different type of person and motivation. And some people who joined market research functions, they don’t wanna do that. They just wanna do the work. Right. And so I, you know. My advice, if they wanna be me someday, is go work for a research firm and become a head of a research firm.

[00:11:46] Pam Forbus: Otherwise, you gotta get in this and become a change agent inside the company. And it can start very, you know, very small by influencing your brand manager, influencing the CMO, influencing someone in sales. So, um, [00:12:00] we, we’ve learned a lot about behavioral economics in the consumer. Mm-hmm. But we haven’t really applied it,

[00:12:06] applied it to how

[00:12:07] Pam Forbus: we, how we.

[00:12:08] Pam Forbus: Engage in our own organization.

[00:12:11] Beautiful. You

[00:12:11] Pam Forbus: know, how you talk to your CFO is different than how you talk to a CO.

[00:12:15] Stan Sthanunathan: Exactly.

[00:12:15] Pam Forbus: And, uh, you, you have to be able to know how to do that. So they’ll take you seriously,

[00:12:19] Stan Sthanunathan: I think. Gotcha. Thank you. So, you know, that actually, uh, lead me to another question. What kind of leadership and influencing skills we should be cultivating, what kinda muscles we need to create so that.

[00:12:32] Stan Sthanunathan: We can be outstanding at exactly what you said. You know, how to talk a different language to the CFO versus CMO versus A CEO. How do we, how do we, what kind of skill do we need to acquire in terms of leadership skills and influencing skills?

[00:12:46] Pam Forbus: Yep. Um, it is about leadership skills, which is, I think, influencing skills and, and having influenced trust and credibility is, is part of leadership.

[00:12:56] Pam Forbus: Um, building. Yeah. Uh, I think my advice [00:13:00] for, you know, someone who’s early in their career versus late in their career would be a little, little bit different, uh, depending on your level. Um, the one thing that I think is really important is to understand organizational I. Behavior and, and being org savvy.

[00:13:18] Pam Forbus: So, um, there’s a book called Organizational or Survival of the Savvy, uh, high Integrity Politics for Career and Business Success. And I’ve had those authors come and, and actually do workshops with my team. Um, politics is a dirty word, probably even more today than any time, but the reality is. They exist.

[00:13:40] Pam Forbus: Exist in every organization, and if you don’t understand how the game is played, you’re just gonna be run over.

[00:13:46] Yeah.

[00:13:47] Pam Forbus: You’re, and we see, you know, very over political people in organizations and under political people in organizations. And I’d say insights, functions and analytics tend to be under political.

[00:13:58] Pam Forbus: They love the work and they [00:14:00] just want the work to s. You know, stand for itself. And if I do the amazing work, I’m gonna get promoted. But I learned I had an aha moment. That that’s not how you get promoted. You, you get promoted by, is your work valued and and is it used? And, um, are you leading and influencing?

[00:14:17] Pam Forbus: So, um, definitely need to to get. More organizational savvy, understand how politics works, um, and practice it, and then get outside your comfort zone. It’s not fun, but, um, the, the shocker for most insights people is your career is, is often career conversations are often happening when you’re not in the room.

[00:14:41] Pam Forbus: They’re, they’re asking are, is this person a leader? Is this person you know ready? And they’re not talking about your functional skills, they’re talking about your leadership skills.

[00:14:52] Stan Sthanunathan: Awesome, awesome. That’s really, really, now, you know, you have coached and developed lots and lots of people along the way from [00:15:00] your, you know, days.

[00:15:00] Stan Sthanunathan: That’s Reto two. Per to, you know, now you in Mondelez, what kind of advice and coaching do you give to, let’s say, uh, people who are just entering the industry? Uh, let’s bucket it into two groups. People who enter in Yep. Into the research agency side and the ones who enter into, uh, the client side. What, uh, so let’s talk about the client side.

[00:15:24] Stan Sthanunathan: What kind of coaching and advice would you give them to make sure that they put their career in the right trajectory from day one?

[00:15:32] Pam Forbus: So I would say performance and doing your job well is number one. I mean, you have to show that you can perform and do your job well. So learning that functional, technical, whatever skills you need and being great at them is really important.

[00:15:47] Pam Forbus: That’s like table stakes. Table stakes, um, I’d say, but even then, go a little bit outside your job description.

[00:15:57] Hmm.

[00:15:57] Pam Forbus: Um, leaders in high value. [00:16:00] Individuals are people who bring new thinking, new ideas to the table. And that might be beyond what you’re currently working on. You may, so for me, I, I happen to love reading and content and I’m, I’m, I read about the fashion industry and the music industry and I can start to connect dots like, oh, that’s that.

[00:16:20] Pam Forbus: What they’re doing over there sounds something like, if we adapted it, we could do that here, you know, fast fashion, whatever. Mm-hmm. What, what does that look like here? And you can start to bring new thinking and ideas, and you become a highly valued, trusted advisor. Hmm. And then you’re, you’re seen as like, we got, we gotta give this person more responsibility, broader scope.

[00:16:38] Pam Forbus: So, um, you know, again, it’s proving yourself and, and adding value. It’s always about adding value, um, for the research. Supplier side. Yeah. Again, it’s how, how do you become a trusted advisor, a, a true partner versus a vendor? And you probably [00:17:00] can’t do it with every client, but there’s probably clients you probably need to go double down on.

[00:17:04] Pam Forbus: Hmm. And I, I know the pressure of how expensive things are and your, you know, pressure to grow your margin, which means you often want to. Automate systematize. Have a product that you can offer lots of people, but what companies need sometimes are very bespoke. Uh, uh, application or to solve a really specific problem that’s, that’s unique to their category.

[00:17:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:17:30] Pam Forbus: So how do you do both? You know, definitely offer those great products that are gonna be cheaper, faster, better, but also help them innovate and solve the big problems. And by you have to be business savvy. You have to understand the business problems to solve for your client, not just. Waiting for the RFP and I’ve had a few partner vendors that have done that with me and I love them.

[00:17:53] Pam Forbus: And I still go back to them over and over for 20 years now. Right.

[00:17:56] Stan Sthanunathan: We all do have one. Exactly.

[00:17:57] Pam Forbus: And and it’s probably [00:18:00] pretty person dependent too. It’s not even company dependent. Yeah. So you’ll follow a person even to a new, new provider. So that’s a, a way that, you know, I’d say a, um, someone on the supplier side could, could really stand out.

[00:18:15] Stan Sthanunathan: On a slightly different note, Pam, uh, go back, uh, to the day, you know, you started your career or the year you started your career based on all the wisdom that you have acquired over the years. Mm-hmm. What advice would you give, uh, to the earlier self of Pam?

[00:18:33] Pam Forbus: Yeah, I, I first, like, I, I would tell myself to get outta your own way.

[00:18:40] Pam Forbus: Um, I spent way too much time doubting my abilities. I had extreme imposter complex. I never was able to go back and get my master’s. So I have an undergrad from a small state college, and I was working with some hotshot MBAs, you know,

[00:18:56] and I

[00:18:57] Pam Forbus: felt like I wasn’t, um, I was in over my [00:19:00] head at first, you know, but I.

[00:19:02] Pam Forbus: I just doubled down. I started reading academic journals and going to every conference, and especially the academic ones, MSI, and um, and I just was able to then start having conversations with the top academics on the latest thinking in, in marketing. And, and, and I knew the, the fundamentals and the principles.

[00:19:20] Pam Forbus: I’d say I, I could hold my own with any, any professor now, but, but I had to, I had to do that myself. So because of that. I would’ve loved to have just spent less time doubting and in that anxiety of, um, you know, am I good enough? And just said go, just go for it. Um, anyway,

[00:19:40] Stan Sthanunathan: so bravery. That

[00:19:41] Pam Forbus: bravery. It is bravery and confidence.

[00:19:44] Stan Sthanunathan: Confidence, yeah. And,

[00:19:45] Pam Forbus: uh, you know that, that’s a hard one because you, you start. Even putting points on the board, and you still are struggling with that confidence. But, um, yeah,

[00:19:56] Stan Sthanunathan: no, that, that’s great. And I think, you know, therein, you outlined your [00:20:00] own, uh, secret formula for success. Just trust yourself. Be brave.

[00:20:04] Stan Sthanunathan: Yes. Put yourself out there and don’t, uh, doubt yourself. Don’t ever doubt yourself, you know, you. Yeah. That’s a great, uh, one,

[00:20:12] Pam Forbus: one thing when I start to doubt myself and it even happens now, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, I say to myself, if not you, then who? And I, I look around everyone and like, if, if you’re not great at this, if you’re not the one that could do this best, who else is there?

[00:20:28] Pam Forbus: And you quickly realize there’s no one else that knows as much, that has the experience as much, that has as much data, that has as much insight. You ha you have to be the one. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I can remember many times I’d be in a meeting and I’d say, shoot, I knew that last year. I knew that was gonna happen.

[00:20:46] Pam Forbus: Why didn’t I speak up?

[00:20:48] Stan Sthanunathan: That’s a key thing. Why didn’t I speak up? Why didn’t I speak up? Why didn’t I speak up? So that’s, that’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. So just, just zooming out of, you know, some of the wonderful insights that you shared about [00:21:00] yourself and, you know, the, uh, what do you think are the biggest opportunity for the insights industry today?

[00:21:07] Stan Sthanunathan: Mm-hmm. Given that world of technology is impacting everything we do. Everything we do. So what are the biggest opportunity

[00:21:16] Pam Forbus: again? Corporate side. And I think that as, as I’ve dug into it, we’ve come a long way than even 20 years ago or 10 years ago. Um, that mindset shift of I’m not about providing research, I’m about driving decision making.

[00:21:33] Pam Forbus: Mm-hmm. Um, and having an impact. So that’s what I’d say like 75% of the effort you’re giving should be doing that, not doing the work. That’s hard because we’re thin. We resourced, we sometimes have more money than we can spend, but which causes just too much work and not enough thinking time. So really pushing for clarity on, um, on priorities and [00:22:00] having the time to do the change management that has to happen with the work you’re doing and not just doing the work.

[00:22:05] Pam Forbus: Um, is, is key I think. Um, and maybe there’s ways, I’ll say one thing when I’ve tried to. Transform an insights function to that. A lot of them have a identity crisis because they see themselves as great market researchers and great analytics people. And that’s who I am and that’s my identity. Hmm. And you have to say that’s.

[00:22:32] Pam Forbus: That’s not the most value add. Like let’s outsource that. Let’s automate that. And they’re like, but if we automate it, what is my role? Who am I?

[00:22:40] Stan Sthanunathan: Who I have a job?

[00:22:42] Pam Forbus: Exactly.

[00:22:43] Stan Sthanunathan: Yeah.

[00:22:43] Pam Forbus: And so you have to paint the picture of what could be. And I would say a lot of people like get excited and they’re like, this is amazing.

[00:22:50] Pam Forbus: I’m gonna have an even bigger role in the company. Yeah. And others are freaked out and it’s probably not for them. And that’s okay. That’s right. That’s okay. That’s

[00:22:58] Stan Sthanunathan: okay. [00:23:00] Is there any one threat that comes to your mind, which you think, uh, could create a Black Swan moment for, uh, the insights industry?

[00:23:08] Pam Forbus: Yeah.

[00:23:08] Pam Forbus: I would say, uh, 10 years ago. Mm, 15 years ago, I thought it was gonna be all the consulting companies,

[00:23:17] McKenzie

[00:23:17] Pam Forbus: and BCG, they were all getting into our space. I don’t know if you remember that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And maybe they still are. Right? They’re, um. And they, they, they have that ear of the senior most leaders and they’re probably saying, you’re not getting enough from your insights function.

[00:23:32] Pam Forbus: Let me do this for you and quickly you can be outsourced. So I thought that was the biggest threat. And so I, I, I used that as sort of a catalyst to, to lift my team to be more than just researchers. Um, I don’t know if that’s as much of a risk anymore. I think there’s. You know, the McKinseys and BCGs have had sort of a, a, a tough time lately of, of their own kind of credibility and respect.

[00:23:59] Pam Forbus: So, [00:24:00] um, but I do think that that could come from more internal functions. So internal functions taking more and more of our responsibilities because there is power in it. So where is your analytics sitting? Where is, um. Uh, you know, pricing and RGM type work, uh, you know, might be over in it, it might be over in finance.

[00:24:24] Pam Forbus: I call these Shadow Insights organizations. Hmm. And they, they’re popping up because there’s a need and a real gap that, that we’re not filling

[00:24:32] Stan Sthanunathan: and we are not filling that, that is, that

[00:24:34] Pam Forbus: we’re not filling that gap. And that goes back to are do you, are you answering the biggest questions? Hmm. And if.

[00:24:43] Pam Forbus: Those questions will be answered somewhere else by someone else. And again, that’s just going to shrink our scope and credibility

[00:24:51] Stan Sthanunathan: if you’re not careful. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Fabulous, fabulous. Thank you, Pam, for a really, really stimulating session today. [00:25:00] Really appreciate the time that you’ve taken. Oh,

[00:25:01] MRII Announcer: enjoyed it.

[00:25:03] MRII Announcer: Thanks for joining the Insights and Innovators podcast for Market Research Institute International. Click subscribe to never miss an episode and visit us@rii.org for more market research insights.