Betting on Disruption: How Two Industry Icons Are Backing the Next Generation of Research Tech with Tod Johnson and Karyn Schoenbart, Co-Founders and Managing Directors, Duo Partners Consulting

[00:00:00] MRII Announcer: Welcome to MRII’S Insights and Innovators podcast, where we talk to top market research professionals to get their inside stories about innovative and enduring best practices. Today’s episode is sponsored by MMR Research Associates. MMR Research Associates is an agile full service marketing research firm with a global support network that performs customized research around the world.

[00:00:25] MRII Announcer: Now, here’s your host for today’s episode. 

[00:00:27] Katie Gross:  Welcome to today’s episode. Betting on disruption, how two industry icons are backing the next generation of research tech. I’m your host, Katie Gross , president of Suzy, and my guests today are Tod Johnson and Karyn Schoenbart , formerly the executive chairman and CEO respectively at the MPD group who led its merger with IRI to become Circana.

[00:00:50] Katie Gross: And now the driving force behind Duo Partners. A firm investing in disruptive tech-enabled data and insights companies. Tod and  Karyn will share their [00:01:00] perspective on what’s fueling innovation in the research space, the serious challenge around data quality and fraud, and why this is a pivotal moment in the industry with decades of leadership experience and a sharp eye on the future.

[00:01:13] Katie Gross: They offer insights into how they evaluate new ventures and what they see coming next. So welcome Tod and  Karyn , and thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having us, Katie. So you’ve both led one of the biggest, most successful and most influential market research companies in the world. Now through Duo Partners.

[00:01:33] Katie Gross: You are backing the next wave of innovation. What do you see happening in the industry right now that makes this a really exciting time to invest? And Karen would love to hear from you first. 

[00:01:44] Karyn Schoenbart: Well, actually, I’m gonna let Tod take this one. 

[00:01:47] Tod Johnson: We beat you to, it didn’t. Divvying up the questions. Awesome. So let me take the lead.

[00:01:54] Tod Johnson: Uh, when we sold NPD after many, many [00:02:00] years of building that business, uh, it it, it wasn’t that we wanted to get out of the market research business, it’s that we. Both felt we had to cut back on what we were doing because of other obligations we had as well. Uh, but when we sold it, we kept, uh, the NPD Venture Fund, which had, uh, three small investments in it.

[00:02:24] Tod Johnson: And our plan was to invest in what we call disruptive data companies. Uh, our plan was maybe to do one or two investments a year. As Karen likes to put it, we have failed miserably because we are up to 13 investments in only a couple of years. But that’s because we see things are changing so rapidly and there’s, uh, some really exciting major opportunities out there for different types of, uh, methods [00:03:00] to collect the information that our industry needs.

[00:03:05] Katie Gross: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so how does your experience as both longtime and I mean longtime operators influence the way that you’re evaluating and supporting those companies that you’re investing in? And congratulations on them being 13. 

[00:03:20] Karyn Schoenbart: Well, it, it’s funny because being an operator, you’re used to saying, okay, what you need to do is this and this and this, and this.

[00:03:27] Karyn Schoenbart: And as a board member, as an investor, you have to learn how to say, have you considered, have you thought about this? So that’s a little bit of a challenge, but they’ve all come to us. We’ve found these companies because they’ve approached us, so they are looking for our expertise. And for us, it’s not about just providing capital, it’s about providing advice and consulting and introductions.

[00:03:50] Karyn Schoenbart: And we’ve got very, very complimentary skills, which is why Todd and I work so well together and why we’re kind of duo partners. Uh, Todd, as you probably know, is a [00:04:00] trailblazer in innovation and many of the most innovative, um, uh, things in the market research industry came out of NPD, and he’s just a genius when it comes to strategy and product.

[00:04:11] Karyn Schoenbart: And long term, uh, value creation. And my strengths are in go to market, you know, sales, pricing, packaging. Um, I’ve got a Rolodex, if you want to call it that, of, um, you know, over a couple of hundred C-suite executives. And I try to match, make the appropriate companies with the appropriate, um, portfolio companies.

[00:04:31] Karyn Schoenbart: And it gr gives us great, great pleasure and great gratitude when these things can work out and we can really help these companies grow. 

[00:04:41] Katie Gross: That’s awesome. I work with, uh, a number of folks who previous MPD and they all always state what a phenomenally run company it is. So, um, that is fantastic. And now pri really providing that guidance to the rest of the industry.

[00:04:56] Katie Gross: It’s interesting that you kind of describe your portfolio, um, as disruptive [00:05:00] data companies, and I think we’ve used the word disruption much like we’ve used the word agile, um, to mean a number of things. But in the context of today’s research and data ecosystem that’s really changing month by month, given the fast advances in ai, what does the word disruption kind of really mean to you?

[00:05:15] Katie Gross: And do you have a, a solid definition? 

[00:05:18] Tod Johnson: Uh, we have a core thesis of, uh, what we’re looking for. Uh. And it has a few facets to it. One is it’s always on kind of data. 

[00:05:32] MRII Announcer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:33] Tod Johnson: It’s probably observational as opposed to inquiry it. It’s really what we kind of have jokingly say is 21st century data, even though much of the industry is still using.

[00:05:50] Tod Johnson: Almost 20th century, uh, technologies to collect information. It’s just going to change and it’s [00:06:00] starting to change, and we’re seeing lots of very exciting companies developing these new methods of collecting data without having to ask questions. 

[00:06:13] Katie Gross: Yeah, you’re so right. Especially, I always see the jokes about NPS scores and you know, to what extent, on a scale of zero to 10, would you recommend Windows to your friends?

[00:06:23] Katie Gross: And I’m like, I’m not sure that’s the way that we think. Um, and certainly I think the, you know, the, the older methodologies in, really all we did in the two thousands is just put the same old methodology online and just collect in a different way. So it’s great to hear that what your definition is of disruptive is what I’m hearing.

[00:06:40] Katie Gross: Is, it’s not about the old fashioned methodologies, just updated, but more about newer ways of gathering that data. 

[00:06:48] Tod Johnson: Can you share an 

[00:06:48] Katie Gross: example? Oh, sorry. Go ahead, 

[00:06:50] Tod Johnson: ex, exactly. 

[00:06:52] Katie Gross: Yeah, could you maybe share an example of the type of company or a company or technology that really reflects that kind of disruption and innovation that you’re [00:07:00] excited about?

[00:07:00] Karyn Schoenbart: Well, we have 13 of them, but um, I’ll try to go through a few of them very quickly. To give you a sense, Katie, uh, one is called Qual Sites. So what they do is they have patented tags that they put on products, and the way that this is used is for in-home product testing. Instead of asking people, when did you use a product?

[00:07:18] Karyn Schoenbart: How much did you use, it actually measures when they used it, how often they used it. And then they can immediately ask them questions. Um, ping them questions, whether they be audio questions or text questions in the moment. So that’s a fantastic use of technology. Another one’s called Taste Wise. They’re out of Israel.

[00:07:39] Karyn Schoenbart: They scrape all of the, um, the food companies like DoorDash and Uber Eats and Seamless to get real time food trends of what people are really doing. They’re not asking them, what’s your favorite sauce to put on your taco? They’re actually observing it. Another one is called charm.io. They’re the only company in the world right now that’s tracking TikTok shop sales [00:08:00] data.

[00:08:01] Karyn Schoenbart: And um, I would usually do this as a quiz question, but I’ll just tell you the answer. Last year in the US TikTok shop, sales across all categories were $7 billion. $7 billion. So if you’re not watching that and tracking that, and already this year it’s exceeding that. Um, so they’re doing that again by using unusual technology.

[00:08:24] Karyn Schoenbart: And finally, and I could go on and on, a company called Reviews also out of Israel is tracking consumer sentiment by consumer reviews as well as social data. The interesting thing is that with consumer reviews, if you don’t know how to do this properly. You’ll pick up on sponsored reviews or duplicate reviews.

[00:08:42] Karyn Schoenbart: And that isn’t good for market research purposes. And what they’re doing is they’re organizing the data around use cases, a marketing hub, an e-commerce hub, an innovation hub. So again, they’re taking the data and then using AI to also organize it in a way that the user can take advantage of it. [00:09:00] So those are just a few examples.

[00:09:01] Karyn Schoenbart: Katie. I could go on and on, but that’s gives you a flavor for the different kinds of companies that appeal to us. 

[00:09:07] Katie Gross: Yeah, for sure. And I definitely have been influenced by TikTok purchasing too many times to to mention. So it sounds, and you, you kinda mentioned a pattern, so that may be one of the answers to, to my next question.

[00:09:19] Katie Gross: Um, but it sounds like you mentioned if these companies aren’t doing it correctly, there’s a lot that could go wrong. So what are those signs that you’re looking for that indicate a company has the potential, not just to be new and fast? To be lasting and differentiated, especially when building tech has become so much easier and faster.

[00:09:37] Katie Gross: So that kind of building of the tech is less of a demen, a defensive moat than it used to be. 

[00:09:43] Tod Johnson: Well, the tech is very important to be able to get unique views of, uh, consumer behavior and that technology I is, uh, what we look at first, uh, patents. [00:10:00] Are actually becoming more important in our industry, I think than they’ve ever been.

[00:10:06] Tod Johnson: And a number of our portfolio companies have very interesting patents, as Karen described in one case on the technology, which, uh, makes the investment in their approach much. More desirable and ’cause it ha once it gets accepted, it has real, uh, long-term potential. So those are kind of the things we start, uh, when we look for things.

[00:10:39] Tod Johnson: Of course, the people involved are important, but our first screening is much more about the technology. 

[00:10:48] Katie Gross: Okay. Good to know. And so when it comes to the kind of the people part of this and the people that you want to back, what are some of those most important qualities that you look for in the people that you choose?

[00:10:59] Katie Gross: And I guess [00:11:00] more broadly, what advice would you give to anyone listening to this podcast in terms of skills, personal characteristics that are gonna help them build lasting careers Also, 

[00:11:09] Karyn Schoenbart: right. We start again. Todd said, we start with the data and the tech and then the people make the, make the decision.

[00:11:17] Karyn Schoenbart: Uh, we like when there’s a, a founder or CEO that is living and breathing the company, like this is their job. So that’s the first thing. Um, and that they are curious and that they’re agile, like you said earlier, and that they also can build a team. You know, it can’t just be a, a one, you know, one person superstar or, or two people.

[00:11:37] Karyn Schoenbart: They need to be able to build a team for the long term. Uh, and also that they’re list, they’re open to advice and they’re open to, uh, hearing. You know, they, they’re not just know-it-alls. And finally, and the advice that I would give people, and I might, I’m going to sound like a broken record, uh, on this topic, is it’s not just about inventing great tech.

[00:11:58] Karyn Schoenbart: You have to figure out what’s [00:12:00] the business problem you’re trying to solve. And if you can find a business problem that clients have that you can use technology to solve better, faster, cheaper, real world, all the things Todd talked about, then that’s the winning combination. Too many people get enamored with the tech and forget about what’s the purpose of the tech and what problems is it going to solve.

[00:12:23] Katie Gross: I completely agree with you. I’ve been to too many industry conferences over the past 18 months where there’s a lot of tech looking for a problem to solve. Um, for sure. And even internally, I think at companies, what we think about at Suzy is not how can we be AI first, but how can we problem serve first and then what AI are we applying to that problem, um, and utilizing it that way.

[00:12:47] Katie Gross: Exactly. So speaking of kind of technology and, and something that we’ve been definitely facing as an industry for always, but particularly in the last kind of 18 months, data quality and fraud [00:13:00] are certainly growing concerns in the insights world. So how do you view the scale and urgency of these issues today?

[00:13:09] Tod Johnson: Uh, what’s going on with data quality? And fraud in the core parts of our industry is very serious. Yeah. And, and I actually think the clients are more concerned about it than is our industry. Mm-hmm. Uh, and to us, the biggest problem is we’ve got to figure out ways to collect data without having to pay for it.

[00:13:40] Tod Johnson: Uh, that’s observational. That’s getting people to volunteer. It’s what it once was. And, uh, there’s no question that paying for data to respondents has led to the fraud and is also leading to [00:14:00] biases in, in our questions. Uh, Karen and I in, in our portfolio. One of our entities, genetic is not an investment, but is a startup that we are funding and leading, uh, with a group of other very experienced people.

[00:14:19] Tod Johnson: And we are using in the media research area, data that’s not paid for. And we can see some very significant differences and we believe significant improvements on, uh, what’s available. 

[00:14:37] Katie Gross: Yeah, for sure. I’ve spent the majority of my career at online panel companies and there’s always been the kind of tension between the CPI, the incentive that you pay and there was kind of an an inverse.

[00:14:49] Katie Gross: Often at the higher the incentive, the higher the fraud. Because that is where those bad actors and bots are going to want to put all of their effort. And the lower the makes 

[00:14:57] Tod Johnson: it attractive to ’em 

[00:14:58] Katie Gross: makes it very [00:15:00] attractive to them. Exactly. Um, and then of course there are the, the, the lengthy surveys, um, are leading respondents to, to be fatigued.

[00:15:07] Katie Gross: And I think we talked about this earlier. The way we ask questions on a scale of one to seven, to what extent do you really like this flavor? And is that really how I think 

[00:15:15] Karyn Schoenbart: in the grocery store? And, and I can give you an example of something that I learned from reviews data on what’s important if you were going to launch a recycled denim product, and I like you, I wrote questionnaires for a living.

[00:15:28] Karyn Schoenbart: And I would’ve never come up with the things that came out of consumer reviews, which was like, smell. I wouldn’t, that would’ve never been in the questionnaire. So, you know, consumers will tell us what they think in a real world way. 

[00:15:41] Katie Gross: Yeah, for sure. And I think that’s what we’re, we’re very excited about conversational insights, um, over at Susie.

[00:15:46] Katie Gross: And I think about my past combining working at a food company, combining the quantitative results with that focus group, um, is really what led to the, to the, um, to the true insight. But at the time, it took months and [00:16:00] significant amount of investment to get that type of research done. Um, and I’m excited about some of those changes we’re seeing.

[00:16:06] Katie Gross: What kinds of, are there specific kind of approaches or technologies that you believe in that are, that are gonna be really effective in helping us with data quality going forward? Well, 

[00:16:15] Karyn Schoenbart: I think Todd talked about it. Todd, do you wanna take that? 

[00:16:19] Tod Johnson: No, go ahead. 

[00:16:20] Karyn Schoenbart: I mean, I think Todd talked about is observational is always on it’s beha tracking behavior.

[00:16:24] Karyn Schoenbart: Um, of course ai, everybody’s talking about ai. AI is going to be changing the world. I love this quote that I heard, heard. Don’t worry so much about AI replacing. You worry about the person who knows how to use it better than you replacing you. And again, it’s not just in data and analytics. AI is providing amazing, amazing tools in go to market right now that people are experimenting with.

[00:16:49] Karyn Schoenbart: They’re jumping on. I know one of these small startup companies doesn’t even have a marketing department. They’re using AI to do all sorts of very interesting things on LinkedIn and um. Uh, [00:17:00] identifying target audiences and integrating it into their workflows in a way that existing companies may not be ready to do.

[00:17:09] Katie Gross: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think it changes so quickly that even about a year ago, I created my first custom GPT and I was very excited with myself and I know ai and then of course, everything changes on a monthly basis. So just on Friday I had to jump into N eight 10, which is a whole new world for me.

[00:17:25] Katie Gross: And I think it’s about keeping up with those skills, not just saying, well, I’ve incorporated AI and I’m done. It’s what’s latest, what’s new and, and continuing. So what other 

[00:17:36] Tod Johnson: on, on the other hand, you have to be a little careful these days with AI hallucinations. 

[00:17:41] Katie Gross: Oh yeah. 

[00:17:42] Tod Johnson: Still exist and are going to continue to exist for a while.

[00:17:47] Tod Johnson: And in trying to measure behaviors or attitudes, hallucinations can be very, very misleading. 

[00:17:56] Katie Gross: For sure. I think QA is gonna become so much more important that if we’re [00:18:00] saving ourselves 10 hours on report writing, we’ll need to leave two hours for QA and review to ensure that we’re catching those hallucinations.

[00:18:07] Katie Gross: So it’s not from 10 to zero, but 10 to two and the role that we pay, I think has shifted. 

[00:18:14] Tod Johnson: Yep. 

[00:18:15] Katie Gross: So what are, what other kind of major trends and shifts do you think are gonna shape the next five to 10 years in market research and data analytics? 

[00:18:22] Karyn Schoenbart: Again, we talked about ai. You know, one thing I think companies have to be careful about is that everybody’s building tools and many of the companies we’re working with are all building a tool, and the tools are getting better and the tools are using ai and the tools are, you ask a question, you get an answer, however.

[00:18:39] Karyn Schoenbart: Clients don’t want 12 different tools. They want the data in their own data lakes databases so that they can solve a problem. I have a problem with, you know, this, uh, new cookie product I launched and I wanna look at. All of my data across all of the resources that I have to understand that problem. So they don’t [00:19:00] want to have to go to 12 tools.

[00:19:01] Karyn Schoenbart: And I think client, uh, companies have to keep in mind that clients want the data integrated. So it’s moving from APIs to agents and so on. And when the challenge is there, and Todd always talks about this, is how do you protect your IP when that happens? So that’s going to be another thing people have to think about.

[00:19:19] Karyn Schoenbart: Um, in terms of the next five to 10 years, I don’t know, Todd, maybe you want to try that one, but it’s, uh, that’s a long time out. 

[00:19:28] Tod Johnson: Uh, I don’t think we can predict the next five to 10 years right now. I think we have to be agile and adjust very, very rapidly because I don’t think we’re ever, none of us have experienced the kinds of changes we’re likely to be going through.

[00:19:48] Karyn Schoenbart: I will say one thing, any transformation in my experience, when you’re trying to transform a company and every consultant will tell you the same thing, at least 30% of your people won’t adapt. Yes. [00:20:00] And I think that’s going to be a very big learning curve for people, because people like checking tab plans and they like ranking questionnaires and they’re comfortable doing that.

[00:20:09] Karyn Schoenbart: And some of those people are not going to be able to adapt to a, a completely new way of working. 

[00:20:15] Katie Gross: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think, you know, a lot, I’ve worked a lot of companies where change management was definitely part of it for the customer. Um, as well, when I started at syn, being a panel exchange, moving away from proprietary, uh, panels was a whole kind of new way of, of thinking.

[00:20:33] Katie Gross: And, uh, is ushering in that kind of new wave is very much not just about look at the tech, but how can we bring the people with us, um, to ensure it’s adopted. So you have both made such a significant impact on the industry. So how does the next chapter of duo partners fit into the legacy that the two of you want to leave?

[00:20:53] Tod Johnson: Well, for me it’s clearly I’ve been involved in trying to create new [00:21:00] applications, new uses of data, and. This is about as ripe a period of time as I’ve ever seen for that kind of opportunity. Uh, so I wanna be able to help entrepreneurs achieve those objectives. 

[00:21:18] Karyn Schoenbart: You know, Katie, I heard something, this is not my quote, but I really love this.

[00:21:21] Karyn Schoenbart: It was the first third of your career is mostly learning. The second, third is mostly earning, and the last third is returning. And that’s what we, you know, feel that we’re doing right now, and it’s extremely gratifying. 

[00:21:35] Katie Gross: I love that. I will quote you on that, even if it’s not your quote, because I love that.

[00:21:40] Tod Johnson: It’s a fabulous quote. 

[00:21:42] Katie Gross: It really is. So for somebody, let’s go back to the learning people. For someone who is entering insights in the data space today, what guidance would you offer them? 

[00:21:53] Tod Johnson: Well, I would say the first thing is historically when you entered our industry, [00:22:00] you kind of entered it by getting involved with a particular methodology.

[00:22:05] MRII Announcer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:06] Tod Johnson: Uh, today I think that would be the worst way to enter the industry. ’cause you get tied down to a methodology that’s going to be going through a lot of changes. So I, I would be looking. For how do you use new types, other types of data? ’cause I think that’s the way you’ll make your mark ai. You gotta include that.

[00:22:34] Tod Johnson: Uh, although that is likely to be more of a tool than a career builder in my mind. Uh, but you have to be comfortable in that environment, but don’t get tied down in a particular methodology. 

[00:22:49] Karyn Schoenbart: Yeah, and I would say what, what we talked about earlier is make sure you’re focused on what are the business problems that business people have?

[00:22:58] Karyn Schoenbart: What are clients? What is keeping [00:23:00] them up at night? What’s their workflows like, and how can you develop things that are going to make their lives easier, faster, more reliable, less expensive, um, by using new technology to do that. So start with the business problem. And also tech won’t re replace relationships.

[00:23:17] Karyn Schoenbart: I still believe that at the end of the day, human beings are still going to wanna buy things from people that they trust and people that they know, and people are gonna get on boards because of people they know. And so don’t lose sight of the relationship building, the networking, and all of that part of this industry.

[00:23:36] Tod Johnson: And, and you just saw why Karen and I are partners. I, I took the technology methodology approach and she took the human interpersonal approach, 

[00:23:47] Karyn Schoenbart: ying and yang. 

[00:23:50] Katie Gross: I think you were both testament to why a partnership and relationships in the industry is so important because you’ve had so much phenomenal success together.

[00:23:57] Katie Gross: Um, and I love that story. [00:24:00] Thank you so much to the two of you for being here. It’s been wonderful. Thank you. 

[00:24:04] MRII Announcer: Our pleasure. Thank 

[00:24:05] Tod Johnson: you, Katie. 

 

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